1HD humanoid skeletons - always CR1/3?

[Kalendraf]

The default humanoid skeleton in the MM uses the human warrior as a base creature. I was exploring what interesting variations on skeletons I could create. One fairly obvious creature to try is an orc.

HD: 1d12 (6 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30'
Armor Class: 15 (dex +1, natural +2, shield +2) touch 11, flat-footed 14
BAB/Grapple: +0/+3
Attack: Scimitar +3 melee (1d6+3/18-20) or claw +3 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: Scimitar +3 melee (1d6+3/18-20) or 2 claws +3 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Qualities: DR 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60', immunity to cold, undead traits
Special Attacks: -
Saves: Fort +0 Ref +1 Will +2
Abilities: STR 17, DEX 13, CON -, INT -, WIS 10, CHA1
Skills: -
Feats: Improved Initiative
CR 1/3

After applying the template and comparing the human vs. orc skeletons, the only major difference is the strength - the orc skeleton will have a much higher strength (17 vs. 13). Note: The base equipment is different as well, but for sake of comparison, I've equipped the orc skeleton here with the same gear as the human skeleton. This is appears to be one of those cases where the base creature's drawbacks are mostly negated by the template.

The template bases CR solely on the creatures HD, but in this example, it would appear that not all CR 1/3's are created equal. Do you think the orc skeleton might justify a slightly higher CR rating?

 

[Darkness]

If you think an orc skeleton is bad, try an orc half-dragon skeleton (Str 25 for a Warrior 1).

 

[Jack Simth]

And they will both flee from the same level 1 cleric, or get roasted by a level 2 (cower/commanded for an Evil cleric). All 1 HD Skeletons are cannon fodder against a reasonably diverse party.

 

[Kalendraf]

And they will both flee from the same level 1 cleric, or get roasted by a level 2 (cower/commanded for an Evil cleric). All 1 HD Skeletons are cannon fodder against a reasonably diverse party.

That's true, but not every party has a cleric (or paladin of high enough level), and turning is not guaranteed to work either. The alternate humanoid skeletons might open a serious can of whoop-ass against a 1st level cleric-less party.

 

[IronWolf]

There was an adventure in a Dungeon mag awhile back that upped the CR to 1/2 for some skeletons that had better than normal armor (taking their AC to 20).

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

That's true, but not every party has a cleric (or paladin of high enough level), and turning is not guaranteed to work either. The alternate humanoid skeletons might open a serious can of whoop-ass against a 1st level cleric-less party.

But the rules can't be made to cater to every possible party combination. It's not a far stretch to assume clerical capabilities in the average party. If that isn't the case, the DM should be compensating accordingly.

 

[Jack Simth]

That's true, but not every party has a cleric (or paladin of high enough level), and turning is not guaranteed to work either. The alternate humanoid skeletons might open a serious can of whoop-ass against a 1st level cleric-less party.

No... but a level-1 cleric with a cha score of 12 has a 60% chance (roll of 1-8 fails, 9-20 succeeds) per turning attempt of turning 2d6 + 2 such 1 HD skeletons. Two turning attempts (of four per day for such a cleric) has a pretty good (84%; 3 93.6%, all four 97.44%) chance of having at least one success, at an average of 9 undead of 1 HD each.

Even if you don't have turning capability, two hits from a level-0 Disrupt Undead has a fair chance of killing a 1 HD undead (unless they have spell resistance.....), a few castings of Burning Hands (an average of 3 at caster level 1, if none succeed their reflex saves) will knock down any 1 HD skeletons caught in it's path; two successful castings of Shocking Grasp will likewise kill a 1 HD skeleton; cure Light Wounds (a level 1 spell, usually) deals 1d8+1 to an undead (assuming a level-1 caster and a successful touch attack), which has a 6 in 8 chance (75%) chance of killing a standard 1 HD, 7 HP skeleton (if the skeleton doesn't save, and skeleton's don't usually have good will saves).

A swing from a bludgeoning weapon - for example, the one-handed Heavy Mace (1d8) in the hands of a Str-16 fighter, will do what, an average of 7.5 damage on a successful hit? The average roll (the one most commonly used when seeing how many HP a simple enemy has) is going to run at 6.5 on a d12 (round to 7). A casting of Enlarge Person (level-1 spell) on that same fighter produces a switch to 2d6+4 damage per hit - an average of 11 damage (but no change on the attack rolls - Str increase's bonus is balanced out by the size increase's penalty).

As skeletons don't have a con score or feats that increase their HP, the same blows will knock them down, provided they are landed. (well, there are a few ways to increase an undeads HP, such as Desecrate... but those really do require higher level setups)

Sure, changing the skeletons' base without changing the skeleton's HD makes a difference - but it won't usually make an overwhelming one, unless the DM is just being cruel with what he can technically do inside the prescribed CR - such as the case of the Half-Dragon Orc Skeleton - but it might be pointed out that such templates as Half-Dragon have a CR adjustment put in (and counter-argued that by the definitions of how the two templates are applied, the Half-Dragon has to go first, and so the skeleton's listing technically takes precedence).

 

[amethal]

If you think that your skeletons pose a greater threat for whatever reason - improved equipment, cunning use of base creature, being buried in the sand for unwary PCs to step on etc. then I suggest you increase the challenge rating.

However, Jack Simth gave a lot of good reasons why often a skeleton is just a skeleton, whatever he was in life.

 

[sarek]

The same thing happens with higher CR skeletons. Just look at the stats a 12-heads hydras would have. (They are probably one of the best creature to use to make an army of skeletons).

I upped the CR by 1 when I used a pack of Hydra skeletons in my game after seing how much damage they did to the party.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

The same thing happens with higher CR skeletons. Just look at the stats a 12-heads hydras would have. (They are probably one of the best creature to use to make an army of skeletons).

I upped the CR by 1 when I used a pack of Hydra skeletons in my game after seing how much damage they did to the party.

Hydra's are one of the best creatures to apply ANY template to. Hydras are just plain uber.