1st/2nd Ed Multiple Attacks

[Steely_Dan]

Most of my 1st ed play was with the old Box CRPGs. They allowed you to move and get all of your attack for the round, no waiting.

Most of my Table top gaming was 2ed which had weapon speeds. When fully used you would add your weapon speed to your initiative roll, that is when you get your move/first attack. You then waited and additional number of counts to you weapon speed to get you second attack. You would keep waiting your weapon speed until you were out of attacks for the round.

I do not recall that at all, Speed Factors only effected initiative in 2nd Ed, I thought.

But, unfortunately, it seems, I have yet to have a definite answer on multiple attacks and moving in pre-3rd Ed.

 

[grodog]

But, unfortunately, it seems, I have yet to have a definite answer on multiple attacks and moving in pre-3rd Ed.

From the 1e DMG, page 66:

Close To Striking Range:

This merely indicates that the party concerned is moving at base speed to engage the opponent. The base speed is inches, indicating tens of feet in the dungeon or similar setting indoors, tens of yards outdoors. All normal activity and bonuses ore permitted when so doing. This action is typically taken when the opponent is over 1" distant but not a long distance away.
Play goes to the next round after this, as melee is not possible, although other activity can, of course, toke place such as that detailed above.

Charge:

This action brings the charging party into combat on the charge round, but there are a number of considerations when it is token.

This may also be of interest, from pages 62-63 (emphasis mine):

Initiative For Creatures With Multiple Attack Routines:

When one or more creatures involved in combat are permitted to use their attack routines twice or more often during the round, then the following initiative determinants are employed. When the attack routine may be used twice, then allow the side with this advantage to attack FIRST and LAST with those members of its group who have this advantage. If it is possessed by both parties, the initiative roll determines which group strikes FIRST and THIRD, which group strikes SECOND and LAST. If one or both groups have members allowed only one attack routine, it will always fall in the middle of the other attacks, the order determined by dicing for initiative, when necessary. If one party has the ability to employ its attack routines thrice, then the other party dices for initiative to see if it, or the multi-routine group, strikes first in the mid-point of the round. Extrapolate for routines
which occur four or more times in a round by following the method above. Note that a routine is the attack or attacks usual to the creature concerned, i.e. a weapon (or weapons) for a character, a claw/claw/bite routine for a bear (with incidental damage assessed as it occurs - the hug, for example). A 12th level fighter is allowed attack routines twice in every odd numbered melee round, for example, and this moves up to three per round if a haste spell is cast upon the fighter. Damage from successful attacks is assessed when the "to hit" score is made and damage determined, the creature so taking damage having to survive it in order to follow its attack routine.

So, creatures with a c/c/b attack roll their three attacks as one routine, without splitting their one routine's attacks up over the course of the round like higher-level fighter PCs or NPCs, who get multiple attack routines per round.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I do not recall that at all, Speed Factors only effected initiative in 2nd Ed, I thought.

But, unfortunately, it seems, I have yet to have a definite answer on multiple attacks and moving in pre-3rd Ed.

I'm not THE EXPERT, and I could be wrong but...

1E initiative becomes... intricate. Speed Factors in 1E affected your initiative but not in necessarily simple ways because determining who goes first wasn't always just a plain, straight-up, who-rolled-higher check. When combat was limited to just melee attacks it was easy to determine, but introducing missile fire and spellcasting muddied things tremendously. The best way to understand it is to do a search for and use A.D.D.I.C.T. by DMPrata. People still argue some of the points - and in fact they will never, EVER be unconditionally resolved - but he pretty much gets the as-written system broken down into a procedure that can be clearly understood and reliably followed.

1E certainly didn't ever subdivide your ability to make all your attacks and move your movement. Unless, as already mentioned, you were more than 1" from your opponents (which then required either charging or wasting a round closing the distance) you were free to move your standard movement as well as take all of your attacks.

As also mentioned, when PC's have multiple attacks the timing is made more complicated with attacks beyond your first either coming at the end of the round or woven in between the opponents mulitple attacks. It also makes a difference as to how you are GETTING those mulitple attacks. If it was part of your "attack routine" that's different than if it's a bonus or extra attack such as enabled by a haste spell.

There's lots of reasons why 1E intiative is so messed up and why EGG himself didn't use it. Mostly I think it comes down to the fact that at THAT time combat was percieved MUCH differently than it is now. How combat was run by DM's and WHY it was run that way... well, it just doesn't happen that way anymore. DM's had a LOT more leeway in determining arbitrarily how the game at their table was going to work and they had few or no hesitations in exercising that privilege.

Don't have 2E books to easily consult anymore but it greatly simplified the initiative process. Maybe even too much. It did reduce it to a simple, straight-up comparison of initiative roll results. You rolled the initiative die, added a modifier or two from a short list and the SIDE with the lowest roll went first, took their standard movement, made all their attacks, and then the losing side did the same. I don't recall even reading anything about needing to interpolate multiple attacks or restrict movement when making mulitple attacks (or restrict attacks when taking full movement).

2E then also had OPTIONAL methods which I think were used so often that they were frequently perceived as the default - individual initiative, more modifiers, Weapon Speed Factors, spell casting times, etc. But it was still allowing a character to take their full movement, plus all their attacks, and all on their own turn, not waiting for the end of the round or somesuch before resolving things. But I still don't recall anything about having to limit your movement or number of attacks in order to both move and "full attack" in the same round. If it did it would have been a strictly optional initiative rule.

 

[juboke]

And at the end of the charge can you make multiple attacks?

Yes, the attack routine may be used twice.

I believe monsters get theirs all at once (claw/claw/bite etc), only iterative attacks with the same weapon (sword etc) are staggered.

Correct. An attack routine is the attack or attacks with different weapons/appendages, two or more attack routines is more than one attack with the same weapon/appendage.

Edit: Again this is for AD&D 1e.

 

[Steely_Dan]

Don't have 2E books to easily consult anymore but it greatly simplified the initiative process. Maybe even too much. It did reduce it to a simple, straight-up comparison of initiative roll results. You rolled the initiative die, added a modifier or two from a short list and the SIDE with the lowest roll went first, took their standard movement, made all their attacks, and then the losing side did the same. I don't recall even reading anything about needing to interpolate multiple attacks or restrict movement when making mulitple attacks (or restrict attacks when taking full movement).

Ah, in 2nd Ed it says you may move half your movement rate and still make an attack. It's the "an" that niggles me.

So it seems so far, 1st Ed is written in such a byzantine manner that there is no one answer.

So far I have:

More than 10 feet away; close (square up to the guy, no striking), or charge (run up to him and smack him) and get your multiple attacks?

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Ah, in 2nd Ed it says you may move half your movement rate and still make an attack. It's the "an" that niggles me.

So it seems so far, 1st Ed is written in such a byzantine manner that there is no one answer.

So far I have:

More than 10 feet away; close (square up to the guy, no striking), or charge (run up to him and smack him) and get your multiple attacks?

Busted out my 2E PH pdf and read up a bit. First thing I came across is that 2E still retains the alternating attacks business from 1E - IF your addtional attacks are made using the same weapon. So if you're using two weapons (eg. sword and dagger) you get both those attacks on your initiative. If you get two attacks with your sword because you're higher level then you get your first attack on your initiative, the second has to wait until everyone on both sides has taken their initiative actions and then you get your second attack.

There's a bullet list of "Things you can do in a melee round". Moving your full movement and taking your full attacks are listed SEPERATELY.

Under "Movement in Melee" it then says:

When closing for combat, a character can move up to half his allowed distance and still make a melee attack.

Under "Movement and Missile" it says:

a character can move up to one-half his normal movement rate and engage in missile fire at half his normal rate of fire.

Under "Charging" it says:

A charge increases the character's movement rate by 50% and enables the character to make an attack at the end of his movement.

Emphasis mine.

It seems clear then that your choices in 2E are supposed to come down to:
A) move your full movement and get no attacks
B) move half your movement and get ONE or at best 1/2 your attacks
C) don't move at all and get your full attacks.

Thinking back on it now I can vaguely recall that that IS the way it was run in my group though that option C really grated when you wound up high level, hasted and using two weapons and COULD NOT MOVE and be effective. I recall now that we became more generous over time and allowed what 3E later enshrined as the 5-foot step. We were using a battlemat and miniatures but weren't necessarily restricting ourselves to moving by squares or being terribly picky about the movement process. But the overly restrictive rules (compared to 1E - rather ironic) noted above prompted us to esentially create the 5-foot step for ourselves.

 

[Steely_Dan]

It seems clear then that your choices in 2E are supposed to come down to:
A) move your full movement and get no attacks
B) move half your movement and get ONE or at best 1/2 your attacks
C) don't move at all and get your full attacks.

Thanks; so, basically it's like 3rd Ed?

 

[Knight Templar]

Thanks; so, basically it's like 3rd Ed?

shhhhh, don't say that where the Grognards can hear you.

 

[Steely_Dan]

Apparently in BECMI you can move up to your speed and make multiple attacks in 1 round.

 

[billd91]

Thanks; so, basically it's like 3rd Ed?

Yes. This is why 3e is a lot less of a change in this respect than a lot of people realize.

That is clearer than 1e, though even 2e could have expressed it in more clear tones and rule structure (like Players Option: Combat and Tactics and 3e both did).

As far as 1e goes, there are a couple of things to keep in mind:

If you're more than 1" away (10 feet indoors, 10 yards outdoors thanks to the miniatures-game-based differing scales) you must spend a round to close before you can attack with melee weapons. The only way around this I see (to make a move over 1" and make melee attacks in the same round) is to charge.

If you charge, you get +2 to hit. You lose your Dex bonus to AC. The initiative goes to the side with the longer weapon and/or reach. And you may only charge once every 10 rounds.

All that said, I'm not seeing (or remembering) anything saying you can't attack with missiles and then close to melee range in a single round.