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1st Level Cleric Features: War vs. Order
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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7396773" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p>Can you unpack where you don't like it? Since I've explained several times that my "unequivocal conclusion" is <strong><em>solely</em></strong> for if the Order domain outdoes the War domain in the arena defined by the War domain mechanically, I assume that you are actually addressing what I'm saying and not looking elsewhere like what you think the War domain "should" be.</p><p></p><p>My conclusion was from the weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, War Priest feature, Channel Divinity, Divine Strike, Avatar of Battle, and from the War domain spells that the War priest, <strong><em>AS DESCRIBED MECHANICALLY IN 5E</em></strong>, is defined by being personally good at combat.</p><p></p><p>Again, this does not cover what other notions we have from god, setting, or brought in from the word "War", what it should be. I'm personally not a fan of it - War to me should focus on mass combat, not the cleric as a single weapon-wielding hero.</p><p></p><p>So, before we go any further - do you disagree with either my method of determining what is mechanically supported by the War domain, or with my conclusions on that? </p><p></p><p>Then I looked at not the shared cleric chassis, but just what abilities the Order cleric is given.</p><p></p><p>For personal weapon fighting, they have heavy armor proficiency (shared by a numebr fo other cleric domains) and Divine Strike (also shared). Both of these are War domain features as well, so they are a push. However, the Voice of Authority, Channel Divinity, Order's Dominion, and Order's Wrath features do not make the Order cleric excel at personal combat, so while being potent abilities and Voice of Authority working better for the <em>concept</em> of a War domain, none of them support personal melee excellence that is the defining mechanical aspect of the War domain. </p><p></p><p>Their domain list has a single buff, which is not self only or particularly powerful, and no direct damage spells. It's a good spell list, and much like many domains will affect the course of battle, but it also does not support the concept of personal melee excellence as well as the War domain's list does.</p><p></p><p>All in all, when taken within the mechanically supported definition of the War domain as personal combat excellence, the Order domain does not match.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, if you change the target of things that explicitly do not target the Order cleric and house rule to reverse them, you do have a power that would fit well on a War cleric. Since the Order cleric does not have that self-targetting power however that's not a useful argument. If I houseruled Barbarian's Reckless Attack to use Dex it would be great for Rogues - but it's not, so I can't say that a Barbarian dip will give rogues Advantage for Dex-based sneak attacks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 7396773, member: 20564"] Can you unpack where you don't like it? Since I've explained several times that my "unequivocal conclusion" is [B][I]solely[/I][/B] for if the Order domain outdoes the War domain in the arena defined by the War domain mechanically, I assume that you are actually addressing what I'm saying and not looking elsewhere like what you think the War domain "should" be. My conclusion was from the weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, War Priest feature, Channel Divinity, Divine Strike, Avatar of Battle, and from the War domain spells that the War priest, [B][I]AS DESCRIBED MECHANICALLY IN 5E[/I][/B], is defined by being personally good at combat. Again, this does not cover what other notions we have from god, setting, or brought in from the word "War", what it should be. I'm personally not a fan of it - War to me should focus on mass combat, not the cleric as a single weapon-wielding hero. So, before we go any further - do you disagree with either my method of determining what is mechanically supported by the War domain, or with my conclusions on that? Then I looked at not the shared cleric chassis, but just what abilities the Order cleric is given. For personal weapon fighting, they have heavy armor proficiency (shared by a numebr fo other cleric domains) and Divine Strike (also shared). Both of these are War domain features as well, so they are a push. However, the Voice of Authority, Channel Divinity, Order's Dominion, and Order's Wrath features do not make the Order cleric excel at personal combat, so while being potent abilities and Voice of Authority working better for the [I]concept[/I] of a War domain, none of them support personal melee excellence that is the defining mechanical aspect of the War domain. Their domain list has a single buff, which is not self only or particularly powerful, and no direct damage spells. It's a good spell list, and much like many domains will affect the course of battle, but it also does not support the concept of personal melee excellence as well as the War domain's list does. All in all, when taken within the mechanically supported definition of the War domain as personal combat excellence, the Order domain does not match. Yes, if you change the target of things that explicitly do not target the Order cleric and house rule to reverse them, you do have a power that would fit well on a War cleric. Since the Order cleric does not have that self-targetting power however that's not a useful argument. If I houseruled Barbarian's Reckless Attack to use Dex it would be great for Rogues - but it's not, so I can't say that a Barbarian dip will give rogues Advantage for Dex-based sneak attacks. [/QUOTE]
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