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1st monk feats: Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple
- Thread starter MarauderX
- Start date
CrimsonTemplar
First Post
Ideally you take both. If you can only take one, take the one that best suits the type of monk you want to play.
If you're a high Str Monk then Imp Grapple is for you. You'll be able to tie up opponents in arm bars and choke holds while youe party members take free hits on him.
If you're a low Str Monk you should consider Stunning Fist. The Save DC goes up as you get higher in level and if they fail you render them flat-footed, they drop their weapons & have to endure AOO's to pick them up.
If you're a high Str Monk then Imp Grapple is for you. You'll be able to tie up opponents in arm bars and choke holds while youe party members take free hits on him.
If you're a low Str Monk you should consider Stunning Fist. The Save DC goes up as you get higher in level and if they fail you render them flat-footed, they drop their weapons & have to endure AOO's to pick them up.
If you really had to choose between them, then Improved Grapple is probably the way to go.
While Stunning Fist might be a bacon saver at times, it is restricted to level/day uses, while you can grapple (either intentially or otherwise) many more times than that (with a +4 bonus and all).
However, if you don't take Stunning Fist as your bonus feat at 1st level, you won't be able to grab it again until 11th level (as a straight monk) - assuming you have the Dex and Wis prerequisites at that time.
Stunning Fist is also a regular prerequisite for many of the Oriental Adventures martial art feats and styles.
But my new dwarven monk has both at 1st level.
While Stunning Fist might be a bacon saver at times, it is restricted to level/day uses, while you can grapple (either intentially or otherwise) many more times than that (with a +4 bonus and all).
However, if you don't take Stunning Fist as your bonus feat at 1st level, you won't be able to grab it again until 11th level (as a straight monk) - assuming you have the Dex and Wis prerequisites at that time.
Stunning Fist is also a regular prerequisite for many of the Oriental Adventures martial art feats and styles.
But my new dwarven monk has both at 1st level.
reapersaurus
Explorer
umm... AFAIK, Improved Grapple as a feat didn't exist when 3E came out.Moonglum said:
It was in OA.
Then it changed in 3.5 to what it is know.
So your comment is kinda baffling....
Stunning Fist was pretty poopy for a core PHB Monk under 3E due to the limited uses, moderate hit chances and low DC; especially at low levels. Basically, anyone you really wanted to Stun could probably either save or avoid the blow.
Improved Grapple is (was?) free with every hit (Stunning Fist would be much more effective if it worked that way!) and Grappling low STR spellcasters is one of the Monks better functions at medium levels. It's also a tactical option (as opposed to SF which is more of a combat enhancer) which is very useful to have for a second-rate fighter like a Monk.
Caveat 1: I haven't tried Improved Grapple myself, but if I were to remake my Monk, I would definitely choose it over Stunning Fist. It can't be more poopy.
Caveat 2: This advice applies to PHB Monks only - if you have 12 supplements full of extra Monk feats and items then you are essentially playing a different class from the "standard" Monk.
Improved Grapple is (was?) free with every hit (Stunning Fist would be much more effective if it worked that way!) and Grappling low STR spellcasters is one of the Monks better functions at medium levels. It's also a tactical option (as opposed to SF which is more of a combat enhancer) which is very useful to have for a second-rate fighter like a Monk.
Caveat 1: I haven't tried Improved Grapple myself, but if I were to remake my Monk, I would definitely choose it over Stunning Fist. It can't be more poopy.
Caveat 2: This advice applies to PHB Monks only - if you have 12 supplements full of extra Monk feats and items then you are essentially playing a different class from the "standard" Monk.
FluidDragon
First Post
I voted Improved Grapple. If you are stuck using core rules like I am in a new 3.5 game, it is the better feat. +4 bonus on all grapple attempts is pretty good.
(If your looking for a visual grappling does not HAVE to mean wrestling) Wing Chun, Aki Do, Any "Jitsu, Tai Chi, Chin Na, and many other arts use joint locks, and other methods to impose pain/damage. And most of them are not on the ground.
Stunning Fist is only usable so many times a day and the save is rather easy to make. In my experience it wasn't very usefull. If you go with OA though you will need it for a number of other feats as a prereq. SOME of those feats could be re-written to use Improved grapple to fit the feat better, but others like Pain Touch are more like enhancers to Stunning Fist.
I would only take stunning fist if I needed it for OA feat chains.
It kinda stinks being limited to the PHB for monk feats though. But hey just make leamonade.
I also prefer high STR monks ONLY FOR GAME MECHANIC reasons though. If the rules supported it I would prefer a high WIS / DEX build. But alas the core rules don't support this very well. At least I rolled good when making my monk!
(If your looking for a visual grappling does not HAVE to mean wrestling) Wing Chun, Aki Do, Any "Jitsu, Tai Chi, Chin Na, and many other arts use joint locks, and other methods to impose pain/damage. And most of them are not on the ground.
Stunning Fist is only usable so many times a day and the save is rather easy to make. In my experience it wasn't very usefull. If you go with OA though you will need it for a number of other feats as a prereq. SOME of those feats could be re-written to use Improved grapple to fit the feat better, but others like Pain Touch are more like enhancers to Stunning Fist.
I would only take stunning fist if I needed it for OA feat chains.
It kinda stinks being limited to the PHB for monk feats though.
But hey just make leamonade.I also prefer high STR monks ONLY FOR GAME MECHANIC reasons though. If the rules supported it I would prefer a high WIS / DEX build. But alas the core rules don't support this very well. At least I rolled good when making my monk!
Xarls Taunzund
First Post
Which is why you take Stunning Fist as your monk bonus feat and Improved Grapple as your regular 1st level feat. Though if I really had to choose it would be Improved Grapple, have loved that one since it came out in OA.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
You will probably eventually probably want both.
Stunning Fist is a little on the weak side until you hit 6th+ level. You have few attempts per day, you miss a lot, and your DC is not too hot. Once you hit low-mid levels, you have plenty of attempts to always burn one per round and your DC hits the respectable 17+ range.
A big positive for Stunning Fist is it does work on very tough grunt monsters that you wouldn't dare grapple -- you just need to get lucky. You have ~10% chance per round of successfully getting a stun against, say, a Frost Giant.
I am a big fan of grappling and Improved Grapple is suberb against humanoid spellcasters. Even humanoid fighter types are vulnerable -- they are much less dangerous while grappled while you are just as deadly.
In conclusion, I think Improved Grapple is slightly better at low level. I like Stunning Fist a little more at mid and higher levels. Both are feats well spent IMHO.
As a final note, do consider tactical synergies. Stuns are awesome when you have a rogue(s) in the party. Grappling is good too, but a bit less attractive if you have an archer heavy party.
Stunning Fist is a little on the weak side until you hit 6th+ level. You have few attempts per day, you miss a lot, and your DC is not too hot. Once you hit low-mid levels, you have plenty of attempts to always burn one per round and your DC hits the respectable 17+ range.
A big positive for Stunning Fist is it does work on very tough grunt monsters that you wouldn't dare grapple -- you just need to get lucky. You have ~10% chance per round of successfully getting a stun against, say, a Frost Giant.
I am a big fan of grappling and Improved Grapple is suberb against humanoid spellcasters. Even humanoid fighter types are vulnerable -- they are much less dangerous while grappled while you are just as deadly.
In conclusion, I think Improved Grapple is slightly better at low level. I like Stunning Fist a little more at mid and higher levels. Both are feats well spent IMHO.
As a final note, do consider tactical synergies. Stuns are awesome when you have a rogue(s) in the party. Grappling is good too, but a bit less attractive if you have an archer heavy party.
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