D&D (2024) 1st vs. 4th Level Feats

[Horwath]

Of course. But the chart you posted on the first page gave out 14 feats. That's no longer "fleshing out" your character, that's pretty much covering over your character. The specific features of the class get subsumed by all the random non-specific feats that end up dominating the PC. That's what I was reacting to.

I should have been more clear.
All those should be on power level of current half feats without ASI.

so it's 7 feats, or just as fighter gets.

And I believe that custom choice should be stronger than mandatory class features

 

[dmgorgon]

As a 2e player, I could do without the stat increases, but players today would cope and seethe without them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I should have been more clear.
All those should be on power level of current half feats without ASI.

so it's 7 feats, or just as fighter gets.

And I believe that custom choice should be stronger than mandatory class features

Still too much. I am burnt from 3e and 4e. Feats that do less than 2 helpful thematic things are annoying.
I like that 5e just puts feat chains into one feat and be done with it.
I still think this is the best way to do it and I am not sure if I totally like the 1D&D way.
I think we don't need the level 1/level 4 split and I think the ASI is comparatively underopowered.
So make every feat at the power of +1 stat, and something as powerful as magic initiate.
Then make ASI increase +2/+1 so you can raise an even stat and get halfway to the next.
Last but not least just make the starting stat increase +1/+1 and add a line to fighting styles, that when you get it for free, that you take it without the stat increase.

 

[Maxperson]

The point really wasn't what the numeric bonuses actually were, but merely that feats that just increase numeric bonuses do not change who your character is. Whereas class features are what create the class and if you overwhelm them by layering on too many random feats that are larger and change what or how your character does things... eventually your class loses a lot of its cohesive theming.

Unless you were a fighter or another class that got bonus feats, you got 7 feats over 20 levels in 3.5. Each of those feats did 1 thing, for 7 things total. In 5e you get as a ranger 5 feats over 20 levels. Each of those feats does 2-3 things for a total of 10-15 things. Both games have lots of feats that add numerical increases and non-numerical bonuses.

5e feats have greater impact on what your character does and will alter the theme of your character to a greater degree. Each feat represents 2-3 3e feats, so it's a massive sudden change compared to 3e's slower changes over time.

 

[DEFCON 1]

5e feats have greater impact on what your character does and will alter the theme of your character to a greater degree. Each feat represents 2-3 3e feats, so it's a massive sudden change compared to 3e's slower changes over time.

I believe we are in agreeance on the same point.

 

[Maxperson]

I believe we are in agreeance on the same point.

Exceeeept, the 3e model was a slow increase over time that represented character growth. Minor things you got better at, or chains you were pursuing that lead to greater, but thematically appropriate increases. For the most part they added more character, rather than disrupting the character. Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave over 8 levels is just slow growth that fits your fighter character just fine. No disruption at all.

The 5e feats are all different and just suddenly add abilities that you have no lower feats to represent growing into them. I mean, you hit 8th level and take Keen Mind. Suddenly you have a nearly perfect memory out of the blue. That's far more disruptive to the character than 3e feats, which usually were not disruptive at all.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Exceeeept, the 3e model was a slow increase over time that represented character growth. Minor things you got better at, or chains you were pursuing that lead to greater, but thematically appropriate increases. For the most part they added more character, rather than disrupting the character. Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave over 8 levels is just slow growth that fits your fighter character just fine. No disruption at all.

The 5e feats are all different and just suddenly add abilities that you have no lower feats to represent growing into them. I mean, you hit 8th level and take Keen Mind. Suddenly you have a nearly perfect memory out of the blue. That's far more disruptive to the character than 3e feats, which usually were not disruptive at all.

Which was my point that I trying to make in yesterday's post at 7:35am. The post was referencing Horwath's chart where they had a 5E PC gaining 14 total combat and non-combat feats over the 20 levels. My comment was that if you gave out that many 5E feats, then those feats could take over the thematic identity of the PC and the class features would end up being almost second fiddle to them.

My 3E feat reference was like you are saying... small changes that you could stack up on and which wouldn't affect character class theme because they were smaller effects (and oftentimes were merely boosts to class features you already had anyway, although I didn't mention that point.)

So either I'm missing what you're talking about, or you think I'm talking about something I'm not meaning to. Cause I think we're both saying the same thing-- 5E feats are really large and can change character much easier, 3E feats are smaller and are more incremental.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

A problem with 3e feats also was that you needed them for things you should be able to do in the first place.

 

[Horwath]

A problem with 3e feats also was that you needed them for things you should be able to do in the first place.

same can be said for 5E feats.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

same can be said for 5E feats.

Not that much.