2 Questions...

[Amazing Mumford]

Hey there, to all the very knowledgable people out there, I have 2 quick questions:

1) When a creature has to flee, do they do so immediately or not until their turn? For example, if an undead creature is turned, or if a character fails a cause fear save-- do they run immediately, or do they stay in their space until their turn comes up and then run?

2) If a character fails a hold person save, and the next round an enemy wizard were to lightning bolt or fireball in the area that the held character is in; does the held character get a Ref save or does he/she automatically fail because he/she is held in place and cannot move, and therefore cannot dodge out of the way??

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

1) They would flee on their turn in both cases.

2) Hold makes you paralyzed, right? If you're paralyzed, you can't move. If you can't move, no reflex save. Note stunned, dazed, etc... keep you from acting but you can still move defensively enough to get reflex saves.

 

[Amazing Mumford]

I would concur with you on both answers, Stream-- that's what I would have ruled for both circumstances, I just wanted to double-check. I was coming up with a double wand-wielder NPC bad guy, and thought a Hold Person wand and a Fireball (or any Ref save spell for that matter) wand might make an interesting one-two punch.

Now here's another question-- should the held target still roll a Ref save due to the fact that if a "1" is rolled, item/equipment damage would then occur? Or would it be horribly mean to rule that if you're paralyzed like that, item/equipment damage would automatically occur??

 

[Nebten]

Actually 2) is incorrect. Being Held/paralyzed gives you a Dex effective of 0 (which would be -5) but you are never denied a saving throw. Never in any text is it stated that a status denies you a Reflex save. Your DM may rule otherwise.

This is also addressed in the 3.5 FAQ found on the Wizards 3.5 website:


Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the PH says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move?

A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate. In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere with Reflex saves:​

• If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves.

• If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly.​

• If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws.​

• If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.​

• If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.​

• If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.​

• If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws.​

• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.​

 

[Amazing Mumford]

Hmmm, good find Nebten... I was initially going by what the PH said, i.e. "...depend on a character's ability to dodge out of the way." I guess if the rule is in the FAQ though, that would stand. It doesn't seem very realistic, but I could see how the designers were most likely concerned about game balance here.

 

[Theroc]

Hmmm, good find Nebten... I was initially going by what the PH said, i.e. "...depend on a character's ability to dodge out of the way." I guess if the rule is in the FAQ though, that would stand. It doesn't seem very realistic, but I could see how the designers were most likely concerned about game balance here.

Just refluff what the reflex save is. If the person successfully saves, state a piece of the ceiling fell in the way of the blast, shielding the person from the worst of the fireball. Or divine intervention, or something.

It'll make more IC sense that way, than dodging without moving, lol.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow, I didn't realize that was the rule. I'm not going to try to argue realism with dodging a fireball, so I guess I need to apologize to the last PC that I held.

Now here's another question-- should the held target still roll a Ref save due to the fact that if a "1" is rolled, item/equipment damage would then occur? Or would it be horribly mean to rule that if you're paralyzed like that, item/equipment damage would automatically occur??

Well, tbh, I don't use that rule anyway. If you do, and the person couldn't make a reflex save for whatever reason, I still think it's unfair and completely against intent to assume not being able to save is akin to rolling a nat 1. If someone has an example of that, please point it out. I'm not aware of any. If you want there to be a chance of equip damage, roll the d20 even though the character can't save and only if a 1 comes up is it damaged. A nat 1 always has a 5% chance of occurring on a d20 roll, regardless of whether your reflex mod is +13 or -infinity.

 

[Dross]

1) When a creature has to flee, do they do so immediately or not until their turn? For example, if an undead creature is turned, or if a character fails a cause fear save-- do they run immediately, or do they stay in their space until their turn comes up and then run?

1) They would flee on their turn in both cases.

So, an obvious Q for me would be: How do you tell if turning worked before the undead's turn? Or are they merely shaken by cause fear spell and not ready to flee? Can you tell?

I house-ruled this to depend on the reason for fleeing:
If it is your decision then it is on your turn.
If it is through a spell, turning, or something that frightens (fire and animals say) then it is immediate, with the victim's init being changed appropriately.

One reason for this is that if Held you are held from the time the spell goes off and you fail your saving throw.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But being held doesn't require any sort of action. You can't just start running away out of turn. The turns are supposed to be 6 seconds, and you're only supposed to be able to do so much in that time.

And yeah, the undead should be taking the shaken penalties, I would think. And I make it pretty clear if an enemy is suffering the -2 from fear or not. Beyond that, I follow a general ruling of being aware if your ability failed or succeeded. If you use a will save spell on someone with no visual indication of whether it worked or not, the rules still say you're aware. I typically follow that when it comes to other things like turn undead.

 

[Dross]

But being held doesn't require any sort of action. You can't just start running away out of turn. The turns are supposed to be 6 seconds, and you're only supposed to be able to do so much in that time.

And yeah, the undead should be taking the shaken penalties, I would think. And I make it pretty clear if an enemy is suffering the -2 from fear or not. Beyond that, I follow a general ruling of being aware if your ability failed or succeeded. If you use a will save spell on someone with no visual indication of whether it worked or not, the rules still say you're aware. I typically follow that when it comes to other things like turn undead.

I should have added: how do other party members know if you have succeeded? you have to tell them, have the victim display some characteristics? Or do you wait and see?