2 things about the site

[Klintus Fang]

Regarding the number of dimensions in the universe: in physics canon there are only 4. 3 space. one time.

String theorists talk of additional dimensions. But that's wild speculation at this point and there are just as many physicists who will tell you its hogwash as there are physicists who actually believe it might be true. Until string theory can make a prediction that can be empirically measured which can't be explained by any other theory then there's no way to know if it's physics or just random mathematical speculation.

Last I checked, which was a few years ago, every string theorist had a different speculation as to how many other dimensions there might be, and no string theorists was actually able to come up with a way of selecting the proper solutions from the complicated equations that arise in string theory and thus none were able to make any empirical predictions.

In other words, string theory is in its infancy. Until it breaks out of that infancy, any one who speculates about dimensions higher than the basic four is either speculating wildly or quoting somebody who is speculating wildly.


Regarding hyperspace: I agree that that is probably what Lovecraft was alluding to. I just wish he'd kept the phrase "non-euclidean" out of it. Mathematicians of his time could have told him he was using that term incorrectly. **sigh**


As a further aside: if one really want to explore the limits of what is knowable and what is not knowable, one should study modern set theory, where the limits of logic are explored ad nauseum.

It's harder to get this into the popular mind set cause its so abstract, but Godel effectively proved early in this century that for any formal language that has a finite set of axioms, you will be able to formulate meaningful question using the formal language which your axioms will be incabable of answering ( I paraphrase at the risk of possibily mis-stating the exact result....).

In other words: mathematics/logic has no end. There will always be unanswered questions.

Now that's interesting!

 

[ax0n]

In other words, string theory is in its infancy. Until it breaks out of that infancy, any one who speculates about dimensions higher than the basic four is either speculating wildly or quoting somebody who is speculating wildly.

I have to admit, my understanding of contemporary physics is sketchy at best, pieced together from various popular science books and documentaries. However, I like to live in a more interesting universe, where they are 11 dimensions, and these theories are less theoretical.

It still remains that in our universe spacetime is still incomprehensible and beyond the understanding of most mere mortals like us. And its all still theoretical and strange enough for there to be a few holes in our understanding for Lovecraft's 'non-euclidean' hyper-geometry and alien gods, unlikely as it is.

As a further aside: if one really want to explore the limits of what is knowable and what is not knowable, one should study modern set theory, where the limits of logic are explored ad nauseum.

I actually did a batchelors degree in mathematics and studied set theory. There is nothing so beautiful as learning about these sets, rings, and the complex space of their inter-relationships, constant, eternal and infinite. I tried to capture a little of this when I wrote the rules for Plane Descriptions.

 

[ùìéè äîáåê]

Dimensions and Stuff

Just as a side note, I am only beginning to learn M-theory (or string theory), but at least from what the teacher teaches us it seems there are 24 dimensions (if I remember correctly). We don't use them all, EVEN AS COMPACT DIMESNIONS, but the universe has to have them all to be consistent. Or something like that.

The dimension rules are excellent, BTW. I found them more inspiring then the MotP rules - especailly the Realms section, which really got me thinking. I ended up thinking up a whole campaign based largely around it - although I haven't played in it yet. Perhaps in the future.

I for one agree with Kant on many points, including the a priori nature of our spatial-sensations. We perceive things in three-dimensional euclidean space, even if we can concieve of more dimensions or stranger geometrie or relations. And Kant also made some interesting predictions along with his errors - such as saying there must be a maximum velocity in the universe.
I think the main idea Lovercraft presents here (as I understand from your analysis, I haven't read it) is very much in sync with Kant's analysis - the universe as it is is beyond the scope of the human mind. Loverrcraft simply adds that by going into realms which are so foreign that you cannot enforce your a priori constructions onto them, you are driven insane. Perhaps "simply non-euclidean" is not enough, but it is a good inspiration, an analogy for things that are different.

I would also recommend "The Invertred World" by Christopher Priest as good exposition on how living in a "truly" non-euclidean world would appear to us euclideanly-minded humans. It has a relevant plot twist, too.

 

[Telgian]

No agreement on dimensions

Greetings,

Hmm...I thought string theory involved 11 dimensions.
Non-math person is confused.
Guess its time to dig up my copy of The Elegant Universe, and actually finish reading it!

Telgian.

 

[ax0n]

The dimension rules are excellent, BTW. I found them more inspiring then the MotP rules - especailly the Realms section, which really got me thinking. I ended up thinking up a whole campaign based largely around it - although I haven't played in it yet.

Glad to hear you liked them . When you do get to play with our rules, any feedback you could send us would be invaluable.

I would also recommend "The Invertred World" by Christopher Priest as good exposition on how living in a "truly" non-euclidean world would appear to us euclideanly-minded humans. It has a relevant plot twist, too.

It sounds very interesting: I've added it to my reading list.

 

[thesilentbard]

Last time I heard of string theory it said that their model accepted two solutions: either a 10 dimensional or 26 dimensional spacetime!

While playing Call of Cthulhu (rpg based upon Lovecraft's novels), my DM threw some funny words around, effectively related to this topic.
He was talking things about Euclidean geometry, Lobatchevsky's geometry and a third one, Leibnitz I think it was. I didn't understand very much of what he was saying (the DM was insane himself, I believe). But it seems that what Lovecraft wanted to express when he used the term non-euclidean is something uncomprehensible to humans, as others have explained in posts above.
He probably would have used other terms if he had written in our days. Also, when he wrote some of his stories, Einsteins theories probably hadn't even been published yet (I'd have to check to be sure).

Lovecraft did other things wrong as well. He was a convinced racist and probably even believed women are inferior to men. So when reading Lovecraft, caution is neccessary.

Still, the way he describes the alternate existences and the ways to reach them is absolutely tremendous, IMHO.

 

[ax0n]

Lovecraft did other things wrong as well. He was a convinced racist and probably even believed women are inferior to men. So when reading Lovecraft, caution is neccessary.

I think this is all part and parcel of dealing with works that have aged. You can't dismiss an author because of views he holds. For example, the Merchant of Venice can be seen as an anti-semetic work, but that doesn't mean Shakespeare should be removed from syllabi. When you refuse even to read or judge someone's work on their personal views you become as inflexible as any bigot.

Similarly, just because Lovecraft's views on metaphysics seem hopelessly quaint in our age of high science, one has to remember that the attraction lies in his ability use those ideas, rather than the ideas themselves. Besides, if we were to dismiss a work on the basis of its scientific correctness we'd be dismissing the whole science fiction genre.

 

[Klintus Fang]

Also, when he wrote some of his stories, Einsteins theories probably hadn't even been published yet (I'd have to check to be sure).

The foundations of non-euclidean geometry were developed by Riemann in the early to mid 19th century. 50 years before Lovecraft was born.

Einstien's theory of relativity was first published in 1905, when lovecraft was 15.


But in anycase, I agree that he probably didn't mean "non-euclidean" in the mathematical sense, and I do think, based upon what little I have read of him, that he is a good author.

Nonetheless, I wish he could have at least asked a mathematician's advice before he started misusing common mathematical terms...

 

[ax0n]

How Do Those Dims Work?

Last time I heard of string theory it said that their model accepted two solutions: either a 10 dimensional or 26 dimensional spacetime!

I don't suppose anyone knows how all those little dimensions are suppose to work. Is it all theoretical, or is there some idea about how they manifest?

 

[Klintus Fang]

I've heard it said that the reason we don't see those extra dimensions in regular experience is because the extra one are "rolled up" or "compacted" into some infinitesimal space.



last I heard, the big problem for string theorists is that the equations which suppossedly described the behavior of the universe had an infinite number of possible solutions, and the string theorists didn't have a scheme for selecting the "correct" solution out of that infinity.

An equation that describes the behavior of a system needs to have a single unique solution to be useful.....

I think they really need to solve this last problem before they spend to much time worrying about what those extra dimensions mean. That's my empirical take on it anyway....