+2 to cha and no counter balance stat: LA +0

[Brazeku]

+2 racial to Charisma is pretty clearly superior to the human feat and skill points.

Not really, not at anything other than really low level anyway. For the charisma, you're looking at a +1 bonus on 8 skills (this is equalled by level 5 for a human in terms of ranks), MAYBE a bonus spell and a +1 to save DCs if you're a sorceror or bard, and a benefit to what- turn? Meh. A bonus feat can be a lot of things for any class, and after level 5 the numerical adjustments tweak in favor of humans.


+2 to charisma is, straight up, not a big deal. You won't break the game.

As an aside, the only stat that is actually superior to any others is constitution, because everyone can benefit from it. Strength and dexterity aren't really 'better' than intelligence, wisdom, or charisma, the guidelines people seem to get hung up about are not very good.

 

[Rystil Arden]

+2 racial to Charisma is pretty clearly superior to the human feat and skill points.

Not really, not at anything other than really low level anyway. For the charisma, you're looking at a +1 bonus on 8 skills (this is equalled by level 5 for a human in terms of ranks), MAYBE a bonus spell and a +1 to save DCs if you're a sorceror or bard, and a benefit to what- turn? Meh. A bonus feat can be a lot of things for any class, and after level 5 the numerical adjustments tweak in favor of humans.


+2 to charisma is, straight up, not a big deal. You won't break the game.

As an aside, the only stat that is actually superior to any others is constitution, because everyone can benefit from it. Strength and dexterity aren't really 'better' than intelligence, wisdom, or charisma, the guidelines people seem to get hung up about are not very good.

You must be one of the people who thought that 3.0 Spellcasting Prodigy didn't need a nerf then

Let's look at the things that you toss aside so casually--

a +1 to save DCs if you're a sorceror or bard

Massively better than the Spell Focus feat! And it stacks with that feat too.

MAYBE a bonus spell

There's a feat to get another spell slot, and you're actually wrong--it can eventually give up to three bonus spell slots (although it probably will give 2), and it is guaranteed to give the Sorcerer at least one bonus spell slot by character level 8. There are four possibilities:

Possibility 1--racial bonus puts you up to 12, 20, 28, or some other 12 + 8X (where X is any non-negative integer). You get a bonus 1st if it's 12 (and it won't be 12 after racial bonus unless you're the world's worst sorcerer), 1st and 5th if it's 20, 1st, 5th, and 9th if 28 or higher.

Possibility 2--racial bonus puts you up to 14, 22, or some other 14 + 8X (where X is any non-negative integer). You get a bonus 2nd if it's 14 (and even with 25 PB after the racial bonus you're bound to have more than 14), 2nd and 6th if it's 22 or higher.

Possibility 3--racial bonus puts you up to 16, 24, or some other 16 + 8X (where X is any non-negative integer). You get a bonus 3rd if it's 16, 3rd and 7th if it's 24 or higher.

Possibility 4--racial bonus puts you up to 18, 26, or some other 18 + 8X (where X is any non-negative integer). You get a bonus 4th if it's 18, 4th and 8th if it's 26 or higher.

 

[Plane Sailing]

+2 to charisma is, straight up, not a big deal. You won't break the game.

It would be an unbeatable choice for sorcerers or bards though.

 

[Plane Sailing]

moved to house rules

 

[Brazeku]

So I understated. But by the time you're in a state where you're hitting a charisma in the mid to high twenties, you've gained around 18+ skill ranks from being a human, (say, mid-high level) which is the equivalent of several feats worth of ranks from skill focus above and beyond what the charisma bonus supplied to you. Not only this, but you have to focus pretty heavily in charisma to get it so high in the first place. And finally, sorcerors are fairly poor, whereas skill ranks are at least somewhat useful to all classes.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Lets say I make a race with a +2 to cha without a negative stat to go along with it. cha is considered to be the weakest stat isn't it? at least i thought i read that someplace on wizards site.

Why do you want to make a race with +2 Cha? I think that is the fundamental question here. What kind of race are you envisaging?

The reason I ask is that the Kalashtar from Eberron are a +0LA race with no ability bonuses but they are given bonuses to certain charisma-based skills to reflect their innately charismatic nature. I guess much the same thing is done for Half-Elves too, really.

So unless you want to have the race because you want a powerful race of sorcerers that don't get hamstrung by LA, there might be alternatives to creating the kind of race you have in mind.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So I understated. But by the time you're in a state where you're hitting a charisma in the mid to high twenties, you've gained around 18+ skill ranks from being a human, (say, mid-high level) which is the equivalent of several feats worth of ranks from skill focus above and beyond what the charisma bonus supplied to you. Not only this, but you have to focus pretty heavily in charisma to get it so high in the first place. And finally, sorcerors are fairly poor, whereas skill ranks are at least somewhat useful to all classes.

But Sorcerers don't care about those ranks very much. Sorcerers are cursed with a small skill list (they don't have knowledge: all, even). They are likely to be able to grab most of what they need without the extra skill points. And I would frankly much much rather have a +1 totally stackable bonus to a skill of my choice than an extra skill rank. Why? Breaking the rank cap of course!

Also, claiming that Sorcerers are fairly poor is meaningless to the discussion. Pick whatever class you think is weakest--let's say Bards. If I make a race that is so overpowered for Bards that you would be a fool to pick anything else (let's say it gives you +4 Bardic Music uses per day, +4 effective Bard level for purposes of songs known and the power of your Inspire Courage, +4 rounds lingering duration of songs, +4 to DCs of songs with DCs or something like that), I might not be making Bards overpowered even after the race, but I would still be making the game less fun and be building an unbalanced race because I'm forcing players to knowingly be worse if they want to not choose that race for a Bard.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It would be an unbeatable choice for sorcerers or bards though.

Why do you want to make a race with +2 Cha? I think that is the fundamental question here. What kind of race are you envisaging?

The reason I ask is that the Kalashtar from Eberron are a +0LA race with no ability bonuses but they are given bonuses to certain charisma-based skills to reflect their innately charismatic nature. I guess much the same thing is done for Half-Elves too, really.

So unless you want to have the race because you want a powerful race of sorcerers that don't get hamstrung by LA, there might be alternatives to creating the kind of race you have in mind.

Both of these quotes are wise. Also, if the OP wants a +Cha Sorcerer race without LA that is fair, he can consider Star Elves, +2 Cha and -2 Con (and some other fun specials). That's balanced, since the Con hit hurts badly to anyone who wants the Charisma (like a Sorcerer)

 

[Brazeku]

But Sorcerers don't care about those ranks very much. Sorcerers are cursed with a small skill list (they don't have knowledge: all, even). They are likely to be able to grab most of what they need without the extra skill points. And I would frankly much much rather have a +1 totally stackable bonus to a skill of my choice than an extra skill rank. Why? Breaking the rank cap of course!

Also, claiming that Sorcerers are fairly poor is meaningless to the discussion. Pick whatever class you think is weakest--let's say Bards. If I make a race that is so overpowered for Bards that you would be a fool to pick anything else (let's say it gives you +4 Bardic Music uses per day, +4 effective Bard level for purposes of songs known and the power of your Inspire Courage, +4 rounds lingering duration of songs, +4 to DCs of songs with DCs or something like that), I might not be making Bards overpowered even after the race, but I would still be making the game less fun and be building an unbalanced race because I'm forcing players to knowingly be worse if they want to not choose that race for a Bard.

What you say about sorcerors is true, but if you're talking about the use of skill ranks in the context of sorcerors, I think it's fair of me to claim that sorcerors are a weakish class and as such that will influence the power balance of a race which supports them (and more or less only them and bards) well. What I see here is not people restricting the use of sorcerors to one race, what I see is the race acting as an incentive to pick sorcerors at all.

Besides, plenty of races have optimal and suboptimal choices. I mean, a half orc is a great melee fighter, especially a barbarian. The stats that are penalized mean hardly anything to him. yet those negatives badly damage his ability to go into certain other classes. In the case of a race which has a +2 bonus to charisma and no other penalties, he is not damaged in any way by this adjustment; he can class into anything, although sorceror will be at an advantage, should you choose to take it.

 

[Flame_Excess]

I can see some possibilities:
+2 Charisma, -1 Feat (Level 1 Bonus Feat)

+1 to skills checks based on charisma

+2 Charisma, -1 to fortitude saves

Summon Familiar (tiny useless pet; not as strong as the wizard/sorceror summon familiar)) that grants you +2 Charisma.

+2 Charisma; score can't exceed 18, -2 any; score can't go below 3

For simplicity, my favorite is the last and for flavor, my favorite is the familiar.