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D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Oh no. I wouldn't really take his ridiculously bleak backstory and use that. I meant some of the builds. And then twist them into something a bit more practical. Giving the villain some more pragmatic motivations and goals. The super tragic childhood trope is much too played out for bad guys.

And hey! I don't think I am super edge lord evil, but I wouldn't mind conquering a world or two!
That's fair. I guess I find that sort of evil ... uninteresting to DM (which again, is a statement of my tastes and preferences, not a judgment). The closest I've come yet was a quasi-deity (it's complicated) who was trying to pull part of the campaign world into another plane, to expand her realm there.

I guess there are ideas in some of the sorcerer builds that could be interesting to deploy. I personally tend to use them more as a list of cheesy exploits to avoid.
 

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Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
That's fair. I guess I find that sort of evil ... uninteresting to DM (which again, is a statement of my tastes and preferences, not a judgment). The closest I've come yet was a quasi-deity (it's complicated) who was trying to pull part of the campaign world into another plane, to expand her realm there.

I guess there are ideas in some of the sorcerer builds that could be interesting to deploy. I personally tend to use them more as a list of cheesy exploits to avoid.
Certainly. Or if I have to, ways to counter other cheesy situations. Not everyone plays the same as me, and I like to be equipped to deal with that if I need to.

Right... for big villains, I prefer that they aren't these odd solo edge cases. Organizations are easier to wield and are less prone to players defeating them earlier than anticipated.
 


BTW, a recap on how, once a wizard has somehow fled (or even has been killed by the Sorcerer, since the Meteor Strike doesn't prevent the Wizard's Clone to activate...) can use of no less than TEN ways to locate someone you don't know based on a rough description like "the guy that killed my friend or me", in a world where the DM doesn't take any action besides what is provided by the rules [and yes, that's the strange one where nobody is ever surprised].

1. Commune.

By RAW, you can ask three questions and must receive a correct answer on all case. There is a paragraphe stating that deities aren't necessarily omniscient so the DM can always veto some information, but that's DM fiat to block the spell, not to provide the RAW-abiding correct answer. Questions can only be answered by yes or no. Anyone who played "Who is it?" can imagine how to draw a composite face of the culprit in a few questions, and identifying his name takes a few tries (Is the name starting with A?...) Drawback: it takes a long time since you can reliably cast it only once per long rest.

2. Contingency

Contigent Sending triggered on "Whenever I hold a golden rod right toward the person who killed my friend". I know, it's a contrived trigger, but by RAW there is no limit on the trigger. Magic happens. Two casting separated by a Teleport and you can get a rather precise reading on the location of the culprit.

3. Glyph of Warding

Triggers are more limited. Choose a visual spell light that can target an area in a spell glyph, triggered by proximity of the guy you seek, of which there is no limit. Nothing defeat the Rod of Dichotomy ^2. Drawback : can take a few days.

4. Scrying

You only need to have heard of the target. Best case: it works. But even if it fails, you gather information. If the target is protected from appearing to magical sensors, you can see their surroundings. That's enough to attempt a teleport. Of course you risk failing, so prepare to take a few days to work. If the spell simply fails but you can recast it the next round, you gained information that the target is under a spell protecting him from being targetted (if it was a succesful saving throw, the spell couldn't be cast for 24h). Try later. Drawback: Team Sorceror could be all under permanent Nondetection. Deduce that he's burning 80 kgp a year on diamond dust. Use Investigation skills to identify such a large scale buyer's business associates. Scry them.

5. Legend Lore

Given the effort of the Sorcerer not to be identified, it could be argued that he isn't of legendary importance. In a "Sorcerer King" scenario, however, where he has already subverted many cities by impersonating wizards doing bad things and then saving key, gullible, people in the last minute and repairing the material damage to become a hero, he would be of legendary importance and would be exposed to information gathering this way. As in "Who is the guy who used immense magic to save King So-and-So?" Drawback: doesn't work in a fledgling ennemy starting his career and who never did something talesworthy. On the other hand, it should work on the level 20 Assassin, since level 20 are planar heroes. You might always get some intersting tidbit, like the place he was last seen.

6. Visions of the Past

Can get visual and emotional informations on the target without targetting it. Good to use on an item like "a corpse", when investigating a series of suspicious wizard murders. Drawback: you need some forensic talent to gather the relevant item, like the poison used by the assassin, a pinch of lime a bunch of out-of-season snow or a catterpillar cocoon.

7. Resurrection

Unless the Sorcerer achieves consistant killing without being seen by its victim, and that means 100% of the time, not even "nearly always" will do, there will be a victim who will have seen him. Resurrect the deceased Wizard and interrogate him. If he isn't cooperative, kill him again and Speak with his skull. Getting information will make the other information gathering venues easier to open.

8. Divination

With the DM having lost any adjudication power, he must provide a truthful answer to an activity to occur in the next seven days. It's limited to an "event, goal or activity", which is pretty narrow. "Will my walk directly east over the next hour make me closer to my the assassin who killed by friend?" is therefore a perfectly valid question. Triangulate as needed.

9. Summon or be an Invisible Stalker.

Given the shortage of CR 6 air elemental, the DM has no other choice of providing an invisible stalker for a summon. One hour is largely enough to get the information you need, provided you speak Auran. Actually a few rounds of chatting are enough. If the DM cheats by using DM fiat to deny Invisible Stalker, which would be against the rules set up for this contest but has nonetheless been claimed to be the case by SOME participants in the thread, just cast True Polymorph on your pet rock.

10. Summon an Orthon

Upcast Summon Greater Daemon to level 9. You can specify a demon type, choose "Orthon". Do whatever is needed to take control of it. If needed, make a Simulacrum of one. Send him to the place the Sorcerer is, located by one of the aforementionned means, like an Invisible Stalker. Just ask him to do one attack and leave. Bonus: works across planes if the Sorcerer decides to Planeshift away if your alpha strike happens to fail.
 
Last edited:

Cobalt Meridian

Explorer
Supporter
BTW, a recap on how, once a wizard has somehow fled (or even has been killed by the Sorcerer, since the Meteor Strike doesn't prevent the Wizard's Clone to activate...) can use of no less than TEN ways to locate someone you don't know based on a rough description like "the guy that killed my friend or me", in a world where the DM doesn't take any action besides what is provided by the rules [and yes, that's the strange one where nobody is ever surprised].

1. Commune.

By RAW, you can ask three questions and must receive a correct answer on all case. There is a paragraphe stating that deities aren't necessarily omniscient so the DM can always veto some information, but that's DM fiat to block the spell, not to provide the RAW-abiding correct answer. Questions can only be answered by yes or no. Anyone who played "Who is it?" can imagine how to draw a composite face of the culprit in a few questions, and identifying his name takes a few tries (Is the name starting with A?...) Drawback: it takes a long time since you can reliably cast it only once per long rest.

2. Contingency

Contigent Sending triggered on "Whenever I hold a golden rod right toward the person who killed my friend". I know, it's a contrived trigger, but by RAW there is no limit on the trigger. Magic happens. Two casting separated by a Teleport and you can get a rather precise reading on the location of the culprit.

3. Glyph of Warding

Triggers are more limited. Choose a visual spell light that can target an area in a spell glyph, triggered by proximity of the guy you seek, of which there is no limit. Nothing defeat the Rod of Dichotomy ^2. Drawback : can take a few days.

4. Scrying

You only need to have heard of the target. Best case: it works. But even if it fails, you gather information. If the target is protected from appearing to magical sensors, you can see their surroundings. That's enough to attempt a teleport. Of course you risk failing, so prepare to take a few days to work. If the spell simply fails but you can recast it the next round, you gained information that the target is under a spell protecting him from being targetted (if it was a succesful saving throw, the spell couldn't be cast for 24h). Try later. Drawback: Team Sorceror could be all under permanent Nondetection. Deduce that he's burning 80 kgp a year on diamond dust. Use Investigation skills to identify such a large scale buyer's business associates. Scry them.

5. Legend Lore

Given the effort of the Sorcerer not to be identified, it could be argued that he isn't of legendary importance. In a "Sorcerer King" scenario, however, where he has already subverted many cities by impersonating wizards doing bad things and then saving key, gullible, people in the last minute and repairing the material damage to become a hero, he would be of legendary importance and would be exposed to information gathering this way. As in "Who is the guy who used immense magic to save King So-and-So?" Drawback: doesn't work in a fledgling ennemy starting his career and who never did something talesworthy. On the other hand, it should work on the level 20 Assassin, since level 20 are planar heroes. You might always get some intersting tidbit, like the place he was last seen.

6. Visions of the Past

Can get visual and emotional informations on the target without targetting it. Good to use on an item like "a corpse", when investigating a series of suspicious wizard murders. Drawback: you need some forensic talent to gather the relevant item, like the poison used by the assassin, a pinch of lime a bunch of out-of-season snow or a catterpillar cocoon.

7. Resurrection

Unless the Sorcerer achieves consistant killing without being seen by its victim, and that means 100% of the time, not even "nearly always" will do, there will be a victim who will have seen him. Resurrect the deceased Wizard and interrogate him. If he isn't cooperative, kill him again and Speak with his skull. Getting information will make the other information gathering venues easier to open.

8. Divination

With the DM having lost any adjudication power, he must provide a truthful answer to an activity to occur in the next seven days. It's limited to an "event, goal or activity", which is pretty narrow. "Will my walk directly east over the next hour make me closer to my the assassin who killed by friend?" is therefore a perfectly valid question. Triangulate as needed.

9. Summon or be an Invisible Stalker.

Given the shortage of CR 6 air elemental, the DM has no other choice of providing an invisible stalker for a summon. One hour is largely enough to get the information you need, provided you speak Auran. Actually a few rounds of chatting are enough. If the DM cheats by using DM fiat to deny Invisible Stalker, which would be against the rules set up for this contest but has nonetheless been claimed to be the case by SOME participants in the thread, just cast True Polymorph on your pet rock.

10. Summon an Orthon

Upcast Summon Greater Daemon to level 9. You can specify a demon type, choose "Orthon". Do whatever is needed to take control of it. If needed, make a Simulacrum of one. Send him to the place the Sorcerer is, located by one of the aforementionned means, like an Invisible Stalker. Just ask him to do one attack and leave. Bonus: works across planes if the Sorcerer decides to Planeshift away if your alpha strike happens to fail.
Galandris, as well as having "hero" as your community title, this thread and all of your work makes you officially my hero :)
 


I can’t help but think we are going about this thread all wrong. The Cheating One is supposed to be built like a PC, but we haven’t been treating him like one. Instead, he has been treated like a BBG.

So, how well would the Cheating One do in an actual adventure, where the character doesn’t have the luxury of spending 2 years to prepare and retreating for 2 days after every battle.

What about Curse of Strahd (a 10th level adventure)? The Cheating One, his sim and the DMM find themselves enveloped by the mists of Barovia. As everyone knows, the mists prevent one from leaving the plane, and arguably, the Demi-plane spell also automatically fails.

How would Strahd play with his new toy? (I suspect there are several Dispel Magics in his future).
 

I can’t help but think we are going about this thread all wrong. The Cheating One is supposed to be built like a PC, but we haven’t been treating him like one. Instead, he has been treated like a BBG.

So, how well would the Cheating One do in an actual adventure, where the character doesn’t have the luxury of spending 2 years to prepare and retreating for 2 days after every battle.

What about Curse of Strahd (a 10th level adventure)? The Cheating One, his sim and the DMM find themselves enveloped by the mists of Barovia. As everyone knows, the mists prevent one from leaving the plane, and arguably, the Demi-plane spell also automatically fails.

How would Strahd play with his new toy? (I suspect there are several Dispel Magics in his future).
I think this has always been the crux of the problem. The sorcerer is great in this nice neat little sandbox OP built, but outside of it, meh! not so much. In real games there is a DM, who yes, has every right to use DM fiat. There are other players, who may (and lets face it, probably will) do unexpected things. Finally, there are actual die rolls, some days your dice roll well and some days they don't.

I am pretty sure, even as a BBEG, the sorcerer would fall to a party of 4 reasonably experienced players running 12th level characters. The sorcerer is after all, not that much more powerful than your average Lich. In the end, action economy would be his downfall, and if the sorcerer is smart, he would take out the healer in the first round, because if he doesn't, he will likely go down without a single kill, and the screams of "NO ONE CAN EVER SEE ME EVER!" or "NO ONE CAN ROLL INITIATIVE UNLESS I SAY THEY CAN!", will fall on the deaf ears of a competent DM.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I think this has always been the crux of the problem. The sorcerer is great in this nice neat little sandbox OP built, but outside of it, meh! not so much. In real games there is a DM, who yes, has every right to use DM fiat. There are other players, who may (and lets face it, probably will) do unexpected things. Finally, there are actual die rolls, some days your dice roll well and some days they don't.

I am pretty sure, even as a BBEG, the sorcerer would fall to a party of 4 reasonably experienced players running 12th level characters. The sorcerer is after all, not that much more powerful than your average Lich. In the end, action economy would be his downfall, and if the sorcerer is smart, he would take out the healer in the first round, because if he doesn't, he will likely go down without a single kill, and the screams of "NO ONE CAN EVER SEE ME EVER!" or "NO ONE CAN ROLL INITIATIVE UNLESS I SAY THEY CAN!", will fall on the deaf ears of a competent DM.
I've been having similar thoughts as to the sorcerer's fate at the hands of a party of competent PCs. The 6-PC party I'm running at 14th level would treat him as a speed bump.

How do I know?

Because in one encounter, at 12th level, they took on a death knight (that when it died turned into a nightwalker), 4 deathclaws, and 4 devourers in effectively a cage match (with other people's souls at stake) with no fatalities. They had some time to prep, and they are very well-equipped, but ... they're pretty awesome, and I'll take any opportunity I can to brag on them.
 

Challenging high level characters in isolation is complicated. Challenging a high-level party is impossible. I've been in high-level campaign as a player, the DM at the end couldn't reasonably send enough firepower at the party. I am wondering how the Sorcerer would do against Strahd. Could his antics of making Strahd pass for a bad guy succeed in generating a revolution among the soulless denizen, leading to the creation of the People's Republic of Barovia? Sure. But it would probably be more difficult than making a few DC 15 checks in the tavern.
 

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