D&D 3E/3.5 3.0 Enlarge and Expansion Question

[Bestbake]

Hey everyone

I'm still super keen on my 3.0 buzz. The more I've been playing it, the more I've found myself preferring it to 3.5 (there's so many small things!).

Sorry, anyway, I have a few psionic players who are thinking about learning the Expansion power. Understanding what the power says and does is all fine, but I was wanting to know other peoples experience with it (and the Enlarge spell, as it's very similar). Increasing size by +100% feels like a bit of a big deal, in a cool way.

Is there a point where I should give the enlarged/expanded character an increased reach/weapon damage die size increase/size penalty to attacks and AC (even though the power/spell speciffically calls out to not change attack & AC)?
How has it been judged in your 3.0 games?
The same questions go for the Reduce spell and the Compression power.


Also, one other thing I'd like to bring up, because I'm so into it, are 3.0 lances.
Heavy lances are a medium weapon, meaning a medium sized character can use them I one hand, and they have reach!
I'm not picturing tourney lances with guards, I'm thinking something more like a balanced cavalry spear. Now I have a great weapon to arm phalanx formation warriors with

Thanks

 

[James Gasik]

If you check the monster rules, you'll find that large sized humanoid creatures gain additional reach. Size changing magic should grant the same benefit (even if not explicitly called out as such). Similarly, enlarged weapons should also increase damage, though AFAIR 3.0 wasn't as clear about this as 3.5.

I can't seem to find my 3.0 PHB, but I thought the light lance was a medium weapon, so small characters could use it, and the heavy lance was properly large? I know the intent was that it was only one-handed when mounted, but if you need a reference for that fact, I can't help you, since a lot of 3.0 information has vaporized. Heck, the only books I can even find at the moment are Sword and Fist and Tome and Blood!

 

[Bestbake]

Some of the "vagueness" that 3.0 has (compared to 3.5, I came into D&D from 3.5) is what appeals to me with the 3.0 ruleset. I guess I appreciate the attitude of being a bit looser with rules/judging.
I think I'll just run the powers and spells as is, with potentially giving larger weapon dice and reach at caster/manifester level 5+, though maybe I should refresh myself on the rough heights of larger (tall) creatures too. I thought there would be something in Savage Species concerting this, I could be missing it. A refresh on the Monster Manual is a good call though, thanks.

The Righteous Might spell is a bit more detailed with it's size increase. I think having enlarge be potentially as powerful as righteous might is a bit wonky..... The spell gives a +4 enlargement bonus to strength, so maybe when expand gives the same benefit (manifester level 8), I can say that the player "properly" increases one size category.

As fr the heavy lance, it's definitely a medium sized weapon. The text entry for lances only mentions their double damage on a charge.
Light lances are small weapons, and lacking reach too. The special text says they're primarily for small riders.

Oh, good mention on Tome and Blood!
Check out the Dragon Disciple. At 5th level it gains an awesome unique special ability, Enlargement. It does specifically call out that damage die (from their class gained natural weapons) increase and that you incur a size penalty to attack and AC. I suppose it makes good sense that the rest of the modifiers for increasing size would just follow suit from the rules presented in the Monster Manual.

 

[James Gasik]

Some of the "vagueness" that 3.0 has (compared to 3.5, I came into D&D from 3.5) is what appeals to me with the 3.0 ruleset. I guess I appreciate the attitude of being a bit looser with rules/judging.
I think I'll just run the powers and spells as is, with potentially giving larger weapon dice and reach at caster/manifester level 5+, though maybe I should refresh myself on the rough heights of larger (tall) creatures too. I thought there would be something in Savage Species concerting this, I could be missing it. A refresh on the Monster Manual is a good call though, thanks.

The Righteous Might spell is a bit more detailed with it's size increase. I think having enlarge be potentially as powerful as righteous might is a bit wonky..... The spell gives a +4 enlargement bonus to strength, so maybe when expand gives the same benefit (manifester level 8), I can say that the player "properly" increases one size category.

As fr the heavy lance, it's definitely a medium sized weapon. The text entry for lances only mentions their double damage on a charge.
Light lances are small weapons, and lacking reach too. The special text says they're primarily for small riders.

Oh, good mention on Tome and Blood!
Check out the Dragon Disciple. At 5th level it gains an awesome unique special ability, Enlargement. It does specifically call out that damage die (from their class gained natural weapons) increase and that you incur a size penalty to attack and AC. I suppose it makes good sense that the rest of the modifiers for increasing size would just follow suit from the rules presented in the Monster Manual.

You might want to use the 3.5 version of Enlarge/Reduce, which only grants a +2 Strength bonus (somewhat negated by the -1 size penalty) and reach for targets who end up Large; size changing is a powerful effect and something on par with a level 1 spell should be a little weaker. I think the 3.0 version of the spell works the same, but until I find that darned book, I can't be certain.

There are a few things you'll find about 3.0 that 3.5 gave errata to for various reasons, like the Haste update or the improvements to the Ranger class that you might want to adopt. But some other things, like slashing the durations on buff spells kind of annoyed me; being able to give my party's Fighter Bull's Strength for the adventuring day was a very cool thing, and 3.5 made it a spell that sometimes expired after 2 combats!

This was made extra obnoxious once you could use Divine Metamagic to Persist buffs later in 3.5; if this was such a problem that you needed to nerf Bull's Strength, why then turn around and let someone have Divine Power for 24 hours? Madness!

 

[Voadam]

3.0 I was fairly RAW unless I was making an explicit house rule.

Expansion never came up but looking it over . . .

Expansion
Psychometabolism (Str)
Level: Psion 2/Psychic Warrior 2
Display: Ol
Manifestation Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Power Points: 3
The manifester grows up to 10% per manifester level, increasing by this amount in height, width, and depth (to a maximum growth of 100%). Weight increases by approximately the cube of the size increase as follows:
Height Increase Weight Increase
+10% (x1.1) +30% (x1.3)
+20% (x1.2) +70% (x1.7)
+30% (x1.3) +120% (x2.2)
+40% (x1.4) +170% (x2.7)
+50% (x1.5) +240% (x3.4)
+60% (x1.6) +310% (x4.1)
+70% (x1.7) +390% (x4.9)
+80% (x1.8) +480% (x5.8)
+90% (x1.9) +590% (x6.9)
+100% (x2.0) +700% (x8.0)
Equipment worn or carried is also enlarged. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the character bursts weak enclosures. However, the character’s larger size is constrained without harm by stronger materials. The character cannot crush him or herself.
The character’s hit points, Armor Class, and base attack bonus do not change, but Strength increases along with size. For every 20% of enlargement, the character gains a +1 enlargement bonus to Strength.
Multiple psionic or magical effects that increase size do not stack. Psionic and magical properties are not enhanced with this power.

My first instinct is to just give the strength bonus, and height and weight increases and be mechanically done. This also has a benefit of ease of use at the table with few extra in the moment calculations.

Figuring out exact height and weight though you could cross reference the creature overview part that gives height and weight to different size categories to see if there is a size category difference which would affect weapon size and reach and such.

Table: Creature Sizes
Size AC/Attack Modifier Dimension* Weight**
---- ------------------ ---------- --------
Fine +8 6 in. or less 1/8 lb. or less
Diminutive +4 6 in.-1 ft. 1/8 lb.-1 lb.
Tiny +2 1 ft.-2 ft. 1 lb.-8 lb.
Small +1 2 ft.-4 ft. 8 lb.-60 lb.
Medium 0 4 ft.-8 ft. 60 lb.-500 lb.
Large -1 8 ft.-16 ft. 500 lb.-4,000 lb.
Huge -2 16 ft.-32 ft. 4,000 lb.-32,000 lb.
Gargantuan -4 32 ft.-64 ft. 32,000 lb.-250,000 lb.
Colossal -8 64 ft. or more 250,000 lb. or more
*Biped's height, quadruped's body length (nose to base of tail).
**-Assumes that the creature is roughly as dense as a regular animal. A creature made of stone will weigh considerably more. A gaseous creature will weigh much less.

RAW written though changing size category would change AC, something the power explicitly says it does not do.

 

[Voadam]

By the way, here is an online 3.0 SRD just missing the Deities and Demigods and Epic OGC.

 

[James Gasik]

By the way, here is an online 3.0 SRD just missing the Deities and Demigods and Epic OGC.

Oh nice! I tried to find something earlier and all the links were dead, thanks!

 

[Bestbake]

I think I'll just end up using the spells/powers as written, and if I do give reach (or other modifiers) then I'll do so at around the +80%-100% size increase. Maybe I'll let my players talk me into, or out of, it

I'm in two minds about the 3.0-3.5 changes. Many folk say it's a good change because haste and heal/harm, but the more I spend time using 3.0 as my base for games, the more I'm liking it over 3.5. Some of it seems change for the sake of change, and changing a spell or two is something super easy for any table to do. Honestly though, I mix a match a bunch of 3.x material as I see fit.
As for the ranger, it had a larger HD and better proficiencies in 3.0.... but you are right that the 3.5 version is better. Though I'd be more keen to try out Monte Cook's 3.0 "update" of the class than to use the 3.5 version in my game. He released a wee pdf called "The Ranger Revised" in 2003, must've been right before 3.5 came out. It's interesting to see some similarities between the update and the 3.5 version.

I agree about the spell durations! In a previous session my younger brother told me that his invisibility spell would last for 30 minutes, and I was certain that her was incorrect. I was thinking about the 3.5 version of the spell, which is 1 minute per caster level. He told me to check the book and he was right. The table is yet to use bull's strength/animal affinity, but I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks for writing up that table, Voadam, that's super handy. I think I will check over some things in the MM still, though I think your instinct is right. Keeping things easy is important. Maybe if players want reach, I can say yes but also incur some size penalties.