Level Up (A5E) Questions about Oaken Fist archetype

[thuter]

I have a couple of questions with regards to the Oaken Fist archetype for Adepts, from GPG#13.

1. Wooden Fists action usage
At level 6, Oaken Fists gain the Wooden Fists ability, which states:

As long as you have unused spell slots, you can spend 1 exertion to allow your unarmed strikes to deal additional bludgeoning damage equal to your proficiency bonus for the next minute.

It does not specify an action type. Is it a free action?

2. Mighty Boughs gives Barkskin
At level 17, Oaken Fists gain the Mighty Boughs ability, which states:

At 17th level, your form becomes even more plant-like. While you use your Take Root ability, you are under a continual barkskin effect for the feature’s duration, and your reach with melee weapon attacks increases by 10 feet.

Why does this ability give the Barkskin effect? While I understand it is flavourful, it does absolutely nothing for any Adept with non-horrible stats. It is well within the realm of possibilities to start the campaign with 16 AC at level 1, by having 16 Dex and Wis. After 4 ASI's, I would expect any Adept to have a combined Dex+Wis mod of more than 6. Even a Brutal Defense adept reaches 16 AC by the time they increase their Strength to 18 (with padded leather armor, which is achievable with starting funds).

Now you could argue that the true power of this feat is the Melee reach increase, to which I would reply that Deep Roots is a terrible ability and I would never use my action in combat to assume a stance that makes me unable to move and give me disadvantage on Dex saves, with the only benefit being a bonus to grappling enemies and dealing negligible damage (1d4 at lvl 11?) to those I grapple. More power is not necessary, this archetype gets carried to the heavens by its tertiary spellcasting and Wooden Fists, but this after the level 11 feature almost feels like an insult: The ability you were likely never going to use anyway now gives you something that does nothing for you. If you would argue that instead Choking Pollen is the real capstone feature here, I would agree, but also point to my next question.

3. Choking Pollen action usage and save timing
At level 17, Oaken Fists gain the Choking Pollen ability, which states:

Also at 17th level, you can expend a spell slot to release a miasma of pollen around yourself. The range is a number of feet equal to 10 + (5 × the spell slot level). Non-plant creatures caught in the cloud must make a Constitution save against your spell save DC or be poisoned for one minute. The cloud lasts for 10 minutes or until dispersed by a strong wind.

It does not specify an action type. Is it a free action?

Also: The cloud lasts for 10 minutes, when do people make saves against it? "Caught in the cloud" implies at the time the ability is used. But afterwards? Can people move into it without needing saves? After the 1 minute of poisoning has passed, do you need to save again? Would you (re)save on entering the cloud, starting or ending your turn in the cloud? If the cloud were to be safe after the initial cast, why are there rules for its duration (10 min!) and its dispersion?

 

[xiphumor]

@Timespike

 

[Timespike]

The reason Xiphumor tagged me is that I wrote the archetype. Let me see what I can clear up here:

1. Yes. If you think that's too good, nothing will be harmed by making it a bonus action.

2. The barkskin is indeed mostly there for flavor, though it's also a backstop against adepts that have poor stats for some reason. The whole point of Deep Roots is to park yourself in a choke point and make anything that wants to get by you pay dearly for trying. The Oaken Fist is supposed to be a bit tankier than the adept norm. Using barkskin for both flavor and to set an AC floor seemed prudent at the time.

3. The wording of the feature should probably read "Also at 17th level, you can expend a spell slot as a bonus action to release a miasma of pollen around yourself. The range is a number of feet equal to 10 + (5 × the spell slot level). Non-plant creatures entering the area for the first time on a turn or starting a turn there must make a Constitution save against your spell save DC or be poisoned for one minute. The cloud lasts for 10 minutes or until dispersed by a strong wind.

Also, yes, Mighty Boughs is mostly a ribbon ability. And for the record, rest assured, I was not attempting to insult or demean anyone with the archetype.

Sorry to see those action/timing ambiguities slipped through design and editing uncaught. I can't do anything about the GPG version, but if I ever do a "designer's cut" of the archetype, I'll make sure to adjust the wording accordingly.

 

[Waller]

Now you could argue that the true power of this feat is the Melee reach increase, to which I would reply that Deep Roots is a terrible ability and I would never use my action in combat to assume a stance that makes me unable to move and give me disadvantage on Dex saves, with the only benefit being a bonus to grappling enemies and dealing negligible damage (1d4 at lvl 11?) to those I grapple. More power is not necessary, this archetype gets carried to the heavens by its tertiary spellcasting and Wooden Fists, but this after the level 11 feature almost feels like an insult: The ability you were likely never going to use anyway now gives you something that does nothing for you. If you would argue that instead Choking Pollen is the real capstone feature here, I would agree, but also point to my next question.

I don’t know the answer to your questions, but I am in awe of your ability to hold both sides of the conversation at once! You don’t even need anyone to reply!

 

[thuter]

The reason Xiphumor tagged me is that I wrote the archetype. Let me see what I can clear up here:

1. Yes. If you think that's too good, nothing will be harmed by making it a bonus action.

2. The barkskin is indeed mostly there for flavor, though it's also a backstop against adepts that have poor stats for some reason. The whole point of Deep Roots is to park yourself in a choke point and make anything that wants to get by you pay dearly for trying. The Oaken Fist is supposed to be a bit tankier than the adept norm. Using barkskin for both flavor and to set an AC floor seemed prudent at the time.

3. The wording of the feature should probably read "Also at 17th level, you can expend a spell slot as a bonus action to release a miasma of pollen around yourself. The range is a number of feet equal to 10 + (5 × the spell slot level). Non-plant creatures entering the area for the first time on a turn or starting a turn there must make a Constitution save against your spell save DC or be poisoned for one minute. The cloud lasts for 10 minutes or until dispersed by a strong wind.

Also, yes, Mighty Boughs is mostly a ribbon ability. And for the record, rest assured, I was not attempting to insult or demean anyone with the archetype.

Sorry to see those action/timing ambiguities slipped through editing uncaught. I can't do anything about the GPG version, but if I ever do a "designer's cut" of the archetype, I'll make sure to adjust the wording accordingly.

Thanks for the clearing up! I don't see how Oaken Fist Adepts would be more tanky necessarily, but I do like the nature flavour. Nature's Boughs had the feeling of a ribbon feature for me, but it had too much crunch text to really view it as one.

I think having to use an action to Take Root is really harsh for the relatively marginal benefits it gives, especially when it takes the hallmark mobility away from the Adept. But overall I really like the archetype. Tertiary spellcasting Unarmed finally gives Adepts access to the Whirlwind Kick spell, which is amazing. And let's be real here: Why would only Druids, Sorcs and Wizards be allowed to do these ridiculous movie stunts? Nature is a relatively broad school as well, giving the Oaken Fist access to a lot of versatility. So rest assured in that I definitively like your work (else I would have just picked a different archetype ).

I agree with the Wooden Fists being a free action, as there is little to gain from using it multiple times in a fight. But for Choking Pollen this would be a problem; you could just dive around the battlefield spending a couple of spell slots to make sure everyone is now poisoned for a minute (strong debuff, no resaves possible), even subjecting an enemy to multiple saves if necessary, while still retaining your full offensive or defensive options from your action and bonus action. It requiring a bonus action seems in line for a capstone feature that does not deal damage, which limits it to once per turn while leaving your action open to attack and/or grapple. So I think your proposed wording is fine.

 

[Timespike]

I get your point, but also, trees aren't known for their mobility. I tried to give it enough other benefits to be useful if you can prepare a bit for a fight, but it's definitely a defensive feature, not an offensive one.

 

[thuter]

Not being able to move is an interesting concept that could allow for some tactical decisions, it's just that I see very little reason to use the feature as is, which is a bummer. Locking the Wooden Fists damage behind being rooted would be a good reason to use the feature, though I would probably make it a bonus action to take root and uproot in that case. Gaining resistance to bludgeoning and piercing damage, but vulnerability to fire (like the awakened tree) would make for an interesting tradeoff while rooted.

All in all, it's a very tough one to balance. If the benefits are too strong, it becomes a no-brainer option to use everytime it is available, and then all the Adept's mobility is pointless. If it is too weak, it rarely sees play, and then the archetype's flavour is diminished. Tradeoff features are probably the most difficult to design

But this thread was started to get clarification on some things, not to rant about Take Roots. So as far as I am concerned, the topic can be closed.