D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 - Beating myself over combat rules :(

[Jon_Dahl]

Players were facing a BBEG. He was aware of all the players, expect for one. The hidden PC had declared to attack as a ready action if the BBEG started to cast a spell. And he was correct: BBEG went for it and tried to cast a spell.

However, according to surprising-rules if there are any unaware opponents, there should be a surprise round. So I gave the hidden PC a surprise round. However this was really vague, since the BBEG hadn't actually started to cast yet; you can only start your actions after an initiative are rolled but still the combat had begun because BBEG was attempting to cast a spell! So in other words: Initiative was called because enemy was trying to cast a spell => Surprise round, but the unaware enemy wasn't actually casting yet so you couldn't disrupt his casting => Initiative and first round, enemy casting commenced and now it was possible to disrupt him.

So I asked the player what he wanted to do during a surprise round. He cast a Lightning Bolt and successfully hit target, which survived.
During initiative round BBEG won initiative and cast Black Tentacles which effectively slayed the group.

I should've asked if the PC wanted to continue his ready action over the surprise round into the normal rounds, which would have probably disrupted BBEG's casting and saved the whole group. However surprise round interfered with my train of thoughts.

I made a costly mistake and had a TPK. Please give a brother a shoulder

 

[Vegepygmy]

Okay, you made a couple of mistakes (or a single one that had repercussions), but at least you learned something from it.

Players were facing a BBEG. He was aware of all the players, expect for one. The hidden PC had declared to attack as a ready action if the BBEG started to cast a spell. And he was correct: BBEG went for it and tried to cast a spell.

And that's where you made your mistake; the hidden PC should not have been allowed to Ready an action outside of combat (that is, until initiative had been rolled). You should simply have given the hidden PC a surprise round when the BBEG started to cast a spell.

However, according to surprising-rules if there are any unaware opponents, there should be a surprise round. So I gave the hidden PC a surprise round.

Correct ruling on your part, but now we see how allowing the hidden PC to Ready outside of combat leads to confusion...

However this was really vague, since the BBEG hadn't actually started to cast yet; you can only start your actions after an initiative are rolled but still the combat had begun because BBEG was attempting to cast a spell! So in other words: Initiative was called because enemy was trying to cast a spell => Surprise round, but the unaware enemy wasn't actually casting yet so you couldn't disrupt his casting

This is where the hidden PC should have been allowed to use a Ready action. Initiative has been called because the enemy is trying to cast a spell (so Ready actions are now allowed) => Surprise round, but the enemy isn't actually casting yet, so the hidden PC declares a Ready action to disrupt as soon as the enemy does begin casting.

=> Initiative and first round, enemy casting commenced and now it was possible to disrupt him.

So I asked the player what he wanted to do during a surprise round. He cast a Lightning Bolt and successfully hit target, which survived.

Yeah, that's unfortunate. You knew the hidden PC wanted to disrupt the enemy's spellcasting, so you should have suggested he Ready to cast lightning bolt once the enemy started casting, rather than just cast lightning bolt immediately. Everyone makes mistakes, though; don't beat yourself up over it.

During initiative round BBEG won initiative and cast Black Tentacles which effectively slayed the group.

I should've asked if the PC wanted to continue his ready action over the surprise round into the normal rounds,

Almost. You shouldn't have allowed a Ready action outside of combat at all. But yeah, the basic mechanic was available to him, and due to confusion over exactly how the rules work, he missed the opportunity. That's frustrating.

which would have probably disrupted BBEG's casting and saved the whole group. However surprise round interfered with my train of thoughts.

I made a costly mistake and had a TPK. Please give a brother a shoulder

I don't think it was the surprise round that was to blame; it was misusing the Ready action. But regardless, now you know how to handle things if the situation comes up again, so that's a good thing.

If I were you, since your error resulted in a TPK, I'd retcon the whole encounter and let the hidden PC try to disrupt the enemy's black tentacles with his lightning bolt. It seems only fair.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

If I were you, since your error resulted in a TPK, I'd retcon the whole encounter and let the hidden PC try to disrupt the enemy's black tentacles with his lightning bolt. It seems only fair.

oh... DM master of Time and Space!

 

[frankthedm]

Players were facing a BBEG. He was aware of all the players, expect for one.

OK, looks like initiative should have been rolled, for everyone, with the Hidden character being just that, hidden. Even if you hide well, you clanking allies still tip the foes off. The successful hide test won't create a surprise round if the hider's allies alert the target.

Since there was a mistake involved in a TKP, a redo of the scenario would be in order. I'd start it at the moment of rolling initiative.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Really there is no right or wrong answer...except yours which ended in a TPK (but that's ok)

your real mistake was allowing the rules to disallow something you knew should have worked, if you are going to give the Hidden PC a Surprise Round (I wouldn't because he is effectively bending Time around him to act when noone else can) then the "Black Tentacles spell" or whatever should have taken two turns to cast (the turn he cast it, the surprise round and then end on his next turn) then the HPC could have disrupted the spell.

Alternatively you could have just gone by RAW and had the Caster Flat-Footed against the HPC's attack which was readied for then

Vegepygmy what do you mean "you can't ready an action out of combat"???? of course you can, that's what layered ambushes are for, one group readies a actions for when the enemies appear, another group readies actions for when the spellcaster begins to heal/buff, a third group readies actions to target the leader when he begins to flee.

In and out of combat are not dimensions you pass through they are just names for if you HAVE to move in initiative order, if my Ranger wants to aim his bow and shoot the next guy to walk through the door, does everyone have to move in Initiative order while the archer holds his draw, no

 

[Tomn]

I think there might be a problem in that the BBEG managed to TPK them because he was able to cast one spell. Just because he wasn't interrupted in the first round of combat shouldn't have made him win. I don't know what really happened, so I may be reading this wrong, but it seems to me that the fight was too difficult to begin with.
Also, you should have informed your player that, if he cast lightening bolt during his surprise round, he wouldn't be able to interrupt the BBEG's spell.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I think he means that the spell, which is pretty powerful spell, was the start and cause of their downfall not that one spell killed their whole party

 

[Madeiner]

Vegepygmy what do you mean "you can't ready an action out of combat"???? of course you can, that's what layered ambushes are for, one group readies a actions for when the enemies appear, another group readies actions for when the spellcaster begins to heal/buff, a third group readies actions to target the leader when he begins to flee.

In and out of combat are not dimensions you pass through they are just names for if you HAVE to move in initiative order, if my Ranger wants to aim his bow and shoot the next guy to walk through the door, does everyone have to move in Initiative order while the archer holds his draw, no

You know, that's something i can't get into my players' mind too.
I think you cannot infact ready actions if you are not in combat.

Here's a demonstration:

You are in front of a closed door. You ready an action to shoot your bow at the first creature you see once your friend opens the door.
Your friend opens the door. On the other side there is a creature that is readying an action to attack the first creature he sees.

What happens here? Initiative is rolled. No surprise round because both parties are aware of each other.
The one that has the higher initiative goes first and can do whatever he wants. Readied actions have had no impact on the outcome

Now, same situation but the other party is not aware of you. Let's say you get a surprise round. You get to either shoot him, or ready an action.
In any case, your readied actions have had no impact on the outcome

Of course, if you ready an action but are caught unaware of your opponents, they get to act first anyway, so guess what, readied actions have had no impact on the outcome.

That's why i believe ready actions cannot be used out of combat.

 

[Omegaxicor]

That kinda makes sense, except you are forgetting about the other party members.

Situation: Allies open a door, you ready an action to shoot the guy behind it, the enemy readies an action to shoot the guy who opens the door
Outcome: You and Enemy roll initiative for a surprise round where only the two of you act

Situation: Same but enemy doesn't ready an action
Outcome: You can act but noone else can

Situation: Enemy readies an action but you don't
Outcome: Enemy can act before anyone else

Situation: No actions are readied
Outcome: Initiative is rolled and battle commences

It seems the Readied actions have an effect to me...I think you're confusion lies in you're understanding of awareness, if I know there is a guy behind the door and prepare an action to shoot him, then I am more aware of him than he is of me when the door opens, but my party is just as aware of the guy as he is of them

 

[Madeiner]

That kinda makes sense, except you are forgetting about the other party members.

Situation: Allies open a door, you ready an action to shoot the guy behind it, the enemy readies an action to shoot the guy who opens the door
Outcome: You and Enemy roll initiative for a surprise round where only the two of you act

And since you rolled initiative, the higher one goes first. Readied action make no difference.

Situation: Same but enemy doesn't ready an action
Outcome: You can act but noone else can

If you can act in the surprise round, or act first in the standard round, then you can ready an action now. So, previous readied actions make no difference.
Keep in mind that if the enemy KNOWS you are on the other side of the door, no surprise round happens, whether you have readied or not.

Situation: Enemy readies an action but you don't
Outcome: Enemy can act before anyone else

No. If you are not aware of him, he acts in the surprise round anyway and can then prepare. If you ARE aware of each other, then it goes down to initiative. If he goes first, he can shoot anyone he wants, normally. If you go first, then you can do whatever he wants. Readied actions have no consequences.

if I know there is a guy behind the door and prepare an action to shoot him, then I am more aware of him than he is of me when the door opens, but my party is just as aware of the guy as he is of them

More aware? Just as aware? That's not in the rules.
You either ARE aware or you are not.
Now i agree that sometimes it is hard to judge whether you are aware of something or not.

It seems to me that it is not possible to provide a scenario where readying actions before initiative starts actually changes the outcome.