D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 character progression/optimization help

[Dodavehu]

It looks like there are a lot of 3.5 vets on here. Anyone want to help me optimize a character for a table top game I'm starting in a couple months?

Here are the limitations:
--It's a half-elf
--Its first two levels are swashbuckler but multiclassing/prestige classes are fine (I'm thinking dervish later maybe?)
--I can't use the TOB or psionics
--It looks like me and a barbarian are going to be the front-liners, so I want to optimize my martial capabilities as much as possilbe (something swashbucklers are known to be poor at, thus the thread)

Any suggestions on a class and/or feat progression?

I'm not too great at the mechanical optimizing stuff and this DM doesn't like retraining unlike DMs I've had in the past and the game will likely go on to 15+ level. I don't want to get stuck with a sucky character.

I tried over on the wizards board, but I figured I'd try here too. I'm a bit rusty with 3.X so any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advanced!
--

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Going just two levels in Swashbuckler is bad. One for free Weapon Finesse or 3 for Int to damage, but don't do 2 levels only.

What books are open, exactly? Any 3.5 WotC books other than the mentioned banned ones?

If you're doing Swashbuckler and can do so, absolutely take the C.Mage variant, Arcane Stunt. You get a limited usage of a spell-like ability, cool things like Blur, Jump, or Expeditious Retreat. Beats the hell out of the Grace class feature it replaces.

Dervish works fine for a Swashbuckler, requires a lot of mediocre feats, though. May want to dip Fighter 2 or martial rogue 2 for more feats. If doing the martial rogue dip, take that at level 1 for WAY more skill points.

 

[BENINHB]

I'll agree with streamofthesky, if you already have 2 levels of swashbuckler you'll for sure want to take a 3rd and get Int to Damage.

There are two ways i would go about this.

1) Take Swashbuckler 3 and TWF, then 2 levels of Rogue and then PrC into Assassin for 1 lvl, then take the feat Daring Outlaw with your level 6 feat and then go back into Swashbuckler. Your swash levels will give you a good Base Attack Bonus and Daring Outlaw lets your Swash levels count as Rogue levels for determining Sneak Attack dice, also Swash levels come with that d10 hit die which is a big help if your going for a front liner. The level in Assassin will give you a death attack which is meh but at least its INT based and an extra d6 of sneak attack, but the great part is it will give you the ability to use wands and scrolls of assassin spells with no UMD check!! I would try to set up flanks with the Barb using Tumble and then go to town with TWF. You'll hit more often than a straight rogue would since your BaB is highter AND you also get INT to damage with each hit and you don't lose out on any sneak attack dice.

Route 2) I would take Swash 3 then 3 levels of Wizard then Prc into Spellsword then Abjurant Champion. This option is all about using spells to buff up. It's going to be more powerful than the other build but it is going to be more work to play since casters come with book keeping and you are going to be limited by spells per day especially at lower levels. Also if your going to be a front liner this build is going to be a little fragile in its middle stages til you hit those PrC. Spells can make up for a LOT of weaknesses though and you will have lots of options on how to deal with problems.


Either way you'll want to focus on DEX, CON, and INT

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Strength is still useful for damage and not getting screwed over by a medium load (fun fact: it is NOT fun to try and dervish dance when tumbling ceases to be an option). Don't go out of your way for it, but also don't maximize dex, con, and int like it's a spellcasting-based stat (ie, in point buy an 18 int is totally worth it for a wizard) to the detriment of it.

 

[BENINHB]

I would say Str is more important option 2, the caster, because he is more likely to be two handed fighting and true striking + Power Attack.

Option 1 i would put the STR at 10 and leave it. most of your damage is coming from sneak attacks and if you are fighting things like plants, golems or undead that are immune to sneak attack its a good thing you took that Assassin dip for access to Grave, Vine and Golem strike.

 

[Dodavehu]

What books are open, exactly? Any 3.5 WotC books other than the mentioned banned ones?

If you're doing Swashbuckler and can do so, absolutely take the C.Mage variant, Arcane Stunt. You get a limited usage of a spell-like ability, cool things like Blur, Jump, or Expeditious Retreat. Beats the hell out of the Grace class feature it replaces.

Dervish works fine for a Swashbuckler, requires a lot of mediocre feats, though. May want to dip Fighter 2 or martial rogue 2 for more feats. If doing the martial rogue dip, take that at level 1 for WAY more skill points.

I think all of the WotC books save the Oriental ones are open. Unearthed Arcana is also shaky it seems.

The Arcane Stunt variant looks really cool. I think I'll try for that at the very least.

My DM wants to minimize class overlap as much as possible so sorcerer, rogue, barbarian, ranger (archer), and binder levels are discouraged. I might be able to finagle the martial rogue variant, but maybe just straight fighter would be better to dip into?

I'm also wondering what the best feat selection would be. Should I just go right into TWF focus are what?

EDIT: Thanks for all the help so everyone, very helpful so far .
--

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Class overlap with who? The other party members' classes? Which classes are they?

Martial Rogue is a better dip than Fighter generally, unless the 1 lower BAB delays your prestige class entry longer than you'd like. Fighter also gets higher HD, but unless you use fixed HD, it's kind of a craps shoot if you'll benefit from that anyway.

Can you take your first level in Martial Rogue, and if not, can you delay the x4 skill points multiplier until you do take Rogue? Not getting that with your rogue levels would be pretty crippling, IMHO.

For feats...do you want to TWF? I've grown keen on the idea of a Guisarme (or other reach slashing weapon, guisarme's just nice for tripping) Dervish that uses Whirlwind Attack (Dervish gives you Spring Attack and requires all the other pre-req feats) and Dervish Dance to spin around, hitting every mofo that he can get within reach of in a single move action. Doing it with WWA makes a single two-handed weapon more efficient (can't attack the same foe more than once anyway) and reach means you're getting to more enemies per turn and possibly don't need insane tumble to keep avoiding provoked AoOs, if your reach is > theirs. Such a build would want Dervish requires feats, Improved Trip, WWA, and Elusive Target (C.Warrior). You qualify easily as a Dervish, and ET is just an awesome feat. Negating power attacks and making foes kill each other is solid, and the cause ovverreach tactic has a lot of potential for someone constantly on the move. You probably can't combine it with WWA during a Dervish Dance, since they're extra attacks, but whenever there's not enough enemies to warrant a WWA, it's a solid way to rack up some free trip attempts (which leads to a followup attack with Improved Trip).

If you want to do the standard TWF route, definitely go with Scimitars, the class highly rewards doing so, and you basically just want Dervish feats and the TWF tree. The Deadly Defense feat (C.Scoundrel) is nice if you have room, for another +1d6 each attack. Forgot if you can use Combat Expertise to activate it, or if it's fighting defensively only.

 

[Dandu]

Can half elves get into Revenant Blade?

 

[Dodavehu]

Class overlap with who? The other party members' classes? Which classes are they?

I listed them in the other post, but the relevant ones are probably rogue, sorcerer, and ranger. I might be able to take these later in my character's career, but probably not for the first 10 levels or so.

I also have a soft goal of maintaining the swashbuckling flavor too, so I'm not sure the guisarme spinning build would fit (although it sounds pretty f'ing awesome).
--

 

[Wyvernhand]

Suel Arcanamach (CArcane) gives you some good mid-late game buff magic. You could take 1 more level of Swash, then 2 levels of Duskblade (PHBII) and 1 level of anything else full BAB (Fighter would be ok here, for the bonus feat). Once you get into Suel Arcanamach, take 4 levels of it, then all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion (CMage), and finish your Suel casting with a single level of Spellsword (CWarrior). That still leaves you with 4 levels to do with as you please. Suel is gonna give you a lot of great wizard spells like Shield and Mirror Image to make you MUCH more resiliant in combat. Build has 14/15 BAB by this point as well.

It sounds a bit compicated, but its actually relatively simple once you break it down. If you have questions, just ask.