D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Charge Question

[irdeggman]

Full-Round Action

A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below).


Quick Draw [General]

Prerequisite

Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal

Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.





Which is why I ask, why "no technically", why no at all?


That's why I said Yes to #3.


So, you could technically say yes to drawing it (without the feat) as part of the move on the charge, though I wouldn't.

This is why "technically" for a charge (which was the original question and what I was answering):

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

It says you are limited to only a standard action or a move action. The PHB also cites during the surprise round - which technically allows free actions (if the DM allows) - so that could be a cited exception to the times you can charge with limited number of actions.


Before someone brings up speaking - remember that speaking is a specific exception to free action rules since it allows you to speak even when it isn't your turn in the initiative order.

I wish I had access to my Rules Compendium to see if there is more written in there on the subject but I am only going by the PHB (and SRD) at the moment.

 

[Tovec]

This is why "technically" for a charge (which was the original question and what I was answering):



It says you are limited to only a standard action or a move action. The PHB also cites during the surprise round - which technically allows free actions (if the DM allows) - so that could be a cited exception to the times you can charge with limited number of actions.


Before someone brings up speaking - remember that speaking is a specific exception to free action rules since it allows you to speak even when it isn't your turn in the initiative order.

I wish I had access to my Rules Compendium to see if there is more written in there on the subject but I am only going by the PHB (and SRD) at the moment.

It's not technically a no.
It is not a no at all.

I quoted the pertinant parts of the SRD for your enjoyment. Charge is a full round action and thereby allows anything a full round action allows. INCLUDING free actions. Those free actions must be taken before or after the charge but they can be taken as they are free and full round actions allow them. 5 foot steps can't, even though full-rounds allow them, because they are a type of movement.

Therefore, if they have quick draw they can pull a weapon as a free action then charge. If not RAW they can't pull a weapon and charge during the same turn, even with a +1 BAB.

Also, all of this was true as I have said it in my first reply. No, No, YES, and No. You can free action then charge but nothing else, RAW. If he wants to make something up then that is fine but RAW it is not acceptable.

Post something from the SRD to show me I am wrong on #3 and we can discuss it. Otherwise what I have posted seems to support exactly what I'm saying.

Also, for your amusement, Talking, which should technically be a non-action or an immediate action but that is besides the point:

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

EDIT: Hell, here's charge too:

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.



If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. (Irreverent 9/10 times, only applies to when slowed or during surprise round.)
Attacking on a Charge

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks

<snipped>
Weapons Readied against a Charge

<snipped>

 

[Aluvial]

I love the my Rules Compendium. Probably the best single 3.5 book out there... Thanks for the discussion. A lot of what I'm doing at this point is making slight adjustments to the RAW. I have another post on changes I'm making to being prone as well...

Aluvial

 

[irdeggman]

Charge[/B]


If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. (Irreverent 9/10 times, only applies to when slowed or during surprise round.)

It may be irrelevant but that is the specific case I was talking about.

When you charge when limited in actions - it is no longer a full round action it is a standard action. Check the Action table in the PHB pg 141 (again I wish I had my Rules Compendium with me, its action table is much more complete) - the note 5 states "may be taken as a standard action. . . .".

 

[Tovec]

It may be irrelevant but that is the specific case I was talking about.

When you charge when limited in actions - it is no longer a full round action it is a standard action. Check the Action table in the PHB pg 141 (again I wish I had my Rules Compendium with me, its action table is much more complete) - the note 5 states "may be taken as a standard action. . . .".

Okay, I can understand confusion about that part. All I can really say is that when it talks about "ONLY" able to take a standard action or move that it is talking about what I said in bold. They mean when you are slowed (as per the spell) or when you are acting on surprise round.

It means that when you ONLY have a standard (and that standard can be substituted with a move) you can use it to charge. It DOES NOT mean that you can move then use your left over standard action to charge. The word ONLY is very important here.

You only have a standard, such as when you are slowed, then go ahead and charge.
Have a full round action instead? Then it is a full round action but you [can] move faster/further.

There is no "standard action" form of the ability. There is a secondary form if you are limited only to standard actions.

It is like quick draw. Without Quick Draw you draw as a move action. With quick draw you draw as a free action. The whole part about drawing as part of a move is really irrelevant once you get the quick draw feat. Sure you could draw as part of a move when you have a +1 BAB but you could also do it for free before doing the move so why bother?

 

[irdeggman]

There is no "standard action" form of the ability. There is a secondary form if you are limited only to standard actions.

I agree with your summary.

But there is indeed a "standard action" form of a charge. It is limited to the times when you can take only a move or a standard action (like surprise round, or when slowed, or special creatures like zombies). In that case it is a "standard" action - and hence the normal rules for what you can do with a "full-round" action are irrelevant.

 

[TKDB]

I agree with your summary.

But there is indeed a "standard action" form of a charge. It is limited to the times when you can take only a move or a standard action (like surprise round, or when slowed, or special creatures like zombies). In that case it is a "standard" action - and hence the normal rules for what you can do with a "full-round" action are irrelevant.

The thing is, this itself is an irrelevant distinction, because even in cases where you're limited to a single action you can still take free actions. This is explicitly stated to be the case for surprise rounds, and the wording of the Slow spell seems to me as though it's concerned only with standard and move actions, and free actions are unaffected:

A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions).

This interpretation is supported by the fact that the disabled condition uses the same wording, but clearly does allow free actions:

A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the game master deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act.

The reference to quickened spells here would also suggest that a character whose actions are limited by a similar effect would also be able to take swift and immediate actions, since quickened spells are technically swift actions.

To my knowledge, the only other case where your actions are limited in such a way that you'd need to charge as a standard action rather than the usual full-round action is for certain monsters like zombies, and once again the wording here is similar to that of the Slow spell and disabled condition, so I'd say free actions are permitted here as well.

 

[irdeggman]

OK I finally got to me Rules Compendium.

pg 27

"Restricted Activity

If you're unable to take a full round's worth of actions on your turn, such as during a surprise round, you can charge as a standard action. In this case, you can move up to your speed rather than up to double you speed. All other rules for charging still apply."

It eliminated the text about "only able to take a standard action or a move action" thus removing the "technicality" that would prevent taking "free actions", but it still says this is a standard action and not a full round action.

On pg 7 it also states

"During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action, and as many free actions as your DM allows. . . .In some situations, such as during a surprise round your activity, and thereby your actions might be restricted."

So when your actions are limited you can still charge and might be able to take free actions if the DM allows it. But the rules don't flat out say you can take free actions except in a normal round, some free actions specify when they can be taken.

 

[Tovec]

[MENTION=16285]irdeggman[/MENTION] To help us out I decided to go back to the original questions in the first post.

1) Can you take a move action, in which you do not move, like store a weapon, then Charge with your Standard action?

2) Can you draw a weapon as part of your Charge?

3) Can you take a Free action and Charge?

4) 5' step and then Charge?

1 - Can you take a move action then charge as a standard action? No.
2 - Can you draw a weapon as part of a charge? No.
3 - Can you take a free action and charge? YES.
4 - Can you 5' then charge? No.

Only when you combine something else and #3 do you get a No. But it is a No because of the new part not because of #3 part by itself. If you take the question that was asked it remains a Yes. It becomes a No under the condition you can't take free actions which once again isn't the question as asked. It has nothing to do with the charge action stopping free actions.

The question asked wasn't even if you can take free actions and a charge as part of a surprise round. Because if it was then the question would be a "maybe/consult DM".

I'm glad you went and looked at the rule compendium but it doesn't say anything new that the SRD didn't already clear up. If it helped you then great but it isn't technically a No for #3 because it is a Yes.

OK I finally got to me Rules Compendium.

pg 27

"Restricted Activity

If you're unable to take a full round's worth of actions on your turn, such as during a surprise round, you can charge as a standard action. In this case, you can move up to your speed rather than up to double you speed. All other rules for charging still apply."

It eliminated the text about "only able to take a standard action or a move action" thus removing the "technicality" that would prevent taking "free actions", but it still says this is a standard action and not a full round action.

On pg 7 it also states

"During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action, and as many free actions as your DM allows. . . .In some situations, such as during a surprise round your activity, and thereby your actions might be restricted."

So when your actions are limited you can still charge and might be able to take free actions if the DM allows it. But the rules don't flat out say you can take free actions except in a normal round, some free actions specify when they can be taken.

Once again, this part doesn't matter. I'm sorry if I'm getting belligerent but it doesn't. It refers to taking a charge as a standard action only when you are restricted, such as surprise action or when slowed. It has nothing to do with a normal charge and it doesn't have any bearing on the whole "free action" question. The rules compendium uses better language but it has the exact same meaning that we have been talking about thus far and once again it doesn't make it a "technically" anything because the answer to the question is still a yes.

I suppose you could add a caveat that says "if you can't do free actions then you can't do free actions", but that should go without saying.
The DM can always say there are conditions that you can't do free actions if they so choose. It has no bearing or basis for whether or not you can do free actions (such as quick draw) then charge.

So back to the first question;

No.
No.
Yes.
No.

You can start houseruling now that you know the way the rules CURRENTLY work. There is no technically on #3 as it is a YES for what was asked. It is a No only if you can't perform free actions but that is an entirely different case and question.

Ie.
#5 If you are unable to perform free actions, can you still quick draw (as a free action) and then charge?

Then the answer would be No.

Have fun.