D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Druids - what to do about them?
Infiniti2000
First Post
Both charging -- that's not an easy setup. They essentially have to come from different directions. You can't charge to the side of a creature, so two characters side-by-side cannot charge the same opponent.
Regardless of what situation you drum up, it will not seem as powerful as you think initially, especially with what other actions could be taken. I agree with the others who say that the druid is not so overpowering. Powerful, yes, overpowering, no.
Regardless of what situation you drum up, it will not seem as powerful as you think initially, especially with what other actions could be taken. I agree with the others who say that the druid is not so overpowering. Powerful, yes, overpowering, no.
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
In my experience and in most of the theoretical work I've seen, the druid is clearly the most powerful overall base class in 3.5 across most levels, with the possible exception of Eberron's artificer. Ironic, that the most and least natural classes represent the pinnacles of power. 
Anyway, here's where I'm coming from on this.
Beyond 5th level, Druids are, at worst, as good at fighting as fighters. They may lose a few points of average damage per round at times, but increase their damage output tremendously for every additional round of preparation they have. Since they can summon tons of creatures to distract or delay enemies, they typically get more time to buff themselves than other casters would.
For example, a 9th level druid can become, in two rounds, a Huge dire lion with a Strength bonus of +11, the ability to almost automatically win any grapple check against a CR-equivalent PC-race character (and most CR-equivalent monsters), and an attack routine of 2 claws +15 melee (1d8+11), 1 bite +10 melee (2d6+5). That second round of buffing also gives the druid's animal companion a huge power boost - perhaps making it into a Gargantuan giant crocodile, for instance. In one level, the druid can have a dire lion and buff it the same way he buffs himself, if he so chooses.
I would be fascinated to see the damage breakdown that shows fighters consistently coming out ahead of what both druid and animal companion can do - particularly if they don't exclusively use two-handed weapon power attack.
Druids are no worse at spellcasting than any other core full caster class. They have the same number of spells per day as wizards but know many more. They lose one spell per day to clerics. Their spell selection does not seem to be any more limited than any other class's, except that they never get a wish/miracle spell. At lower levels, their healing abilities are not significantly worse than a cleric's.
Druids are great sneaking characters. They can be extremely stealthy by wild shaping into smaller, less obtrusive animals. They can also avoid many traps - almost all in a wilderness environment. They also get 4 sp/level and a solid skill selection.
Druids require only one stat: Wisdom. They can freely 'dump' all three physical stats if starting above 5th level, and as such can have even more skill points or a Charisma high enough to make them decent social characters.
Druids have excellent synergy with each other. For instance, four 9th level druids can wild shape, one of them casts animal growth on the quartet, and each of the other three casts the buff spell of his choice or begins combat. What clerical or arcane buff spell can achieve such results across multiple targets? In short, none - even at higher spell levels.
Druids need few magic items, but benefit immensely from those they get - like Monk's Belts (core, outrageously beneficial), Wisdom-enhancing items, Bracers of Armor, and Natural Weapon-enhancing items.
This is not some "uber" druid build. This is a single core feat (Natural Spell) and the basic class abilities!
Anyway, here's where I'm coming from on this.
Beyond 5th level, Druids are, at worst, as good at fighting as fighters. They may lose a few points of average damage per round at times, but increase their damage output tremendously for every additional round of preparation they have. Since they can summon tons of creatures to distract or delay enemies, they typically get more time to buff themselves than other casters would.
For example, a 9th level druid can become, in two rounds, a Huge dire lion with a Strength bonus of +11, the ability to almost automatically win any grapple check against a CR-equivalent PC-race character (and most CR-equivalent monsters), and an attack routine of 2 claws +15 melee (1d8+11), 1 bite +10 melee (2d6+5). That second round of buffing also gives the druid's animal companion a huge power boost - perhaps making it into a Gargantuan giant crocodile, for instance. In one level, the druid can have a dire lion and buff it the same way he buffs himself, if he so chooses.
I would be fascinated to see the damage breakdown that shows fighters consistently coming out ahead of what both druid and animal companion can do - particularly if they don't exclusively use two-handed weapon power attack.
Druids are no worse at spellcasting than any other core full caster class. They have the same number of spells per day as wizards but know many more. They lose one spell per day to clerics. Their spell selection does not seem to be any more limited than any other class's, except that they never get a wish/miracle spell. At lower levels, their healing abilities are not significantly worse than a cleric's.
Druids are great sneaking characters. They can be extremely stealthy by wild shaping into smaller, less obtrusive animals. They can also avoid many traps - almost all in a wilderness environment. They also get 4 sp/level and a solid skill selection.
Druids require only one stat: Wisdom. They can freely 'dump' all three physical stats if starting above 5th level, and as such can have even more skill points or a Charisma high enough to make them decent social characters.
Druids have excellent synergy with each other. For instance, four 9th level druids can wild shape, one of them casts animal growth on the quartet, and each of the other three casts the buff spell of his choice or begins combat. What clerical or arcane buff spell can achieve such results across multiple targets? In short, none - even at higher spell levels.
Druids need few magic items, but benefit immensely from those they get - like Monk's Belts (core, outrageously beneficial), Wisdom-enhancing items, Bracers of Armor, and Natural Weapon-enhancing items.
This is not some "uber" druid build. This is a single core feat (Natural Spell) and the basic class abilities!
BSF
Explorer
So an 8th level Druid with a large animal companion?
They were both able to charge and then the next round a flamestrike?
That's all? Three rounds to get off that sequence? Heck, a Sorceror could have dropped off three evocations in that time frame. I guess that's only 24d6.
A raging barbarian with power attack could have gotten off a charge and then two full attacks. Admittedly, if they all hit, that's only 10d6 + [strikethrough](10 x 1.5 str) + (10 x 2 x power attack mod).[/strikethrough] 5 x 1.5 str + 5 x 2 x powerattack mod. If the Barb starts with an 18 Str, rages to 22, and applies a -2 penaltiy to hit for PowerAttack, the damage potential is only [strikethrough]10d6+90+40.[/strikethrough] 10d6+45+20.
(Edit: Chumped up for # attacks vs # of damage dice for greataxe. Don't let your children distract you while crunching numbers)
An archer build with rapid shot could have gotten off 9 arrows. Using a longbow for d8 per arrow, that is only 9d8. Make it a might composite longbow and add in Greater Magic Weapon for a +2 per shot and you can bring that up to 9d8 + 18 + 18 for an archer with a 14 str. Of course, the archer is also fighting from a healthy distance.
The dual rhinocerous Powerful Charge is a heavy hit, but it isn't quite overbearing at 8th level.
They were both able to charge and then the next round a flamestrike?
That's all? Three rounds to get off that sequence? Heck, a Sorceror could have dropped off three evocations in that time frame. I guess that's only 24d6.
A raging barbarian with power attack could have gotten off a charge and then two full attacks. Admittedly, if they all hit, that's only 10d6 + [strikethrough](10 x 1.5 str) + (10 x 2 x power attack mod).[/strikethrough] 5 x 1.5 str + 5 x 2 x powerattack mod. If the Barb starts with an 18 Str, rages to 22, and applies a -2 penaltiy to hit for PowerAttack, the damage potential is only [strikethrough]10d6+90+40.[/strikethrough] 10d6+45+20.
(Edit: Chumped up for # attacks vs # of damage dice for greataxe. Don't let your children distract you while crunching numbers)
An archer build with rapid shot could have gotten off 9 arrows. Using a longbow for d8 per arrow, that is only 9d8. Make it a might composite longbow and add in Greater Magic Weapon for a +2 per shot and you can bring that up to 9d8 + 18 + 18 for an archer with a 14 str. Of course, the archer is also fighting from a healthy distance.
The dual rhinocerous Powerful Charge is a heavy hit, but it isn't quite overbearing at 8th level.
Last edited:
MoogleEmpMog - what would you do to reduce the druid's power
BardStephenFox - only two rounds. the druid was already in rhino form. I agree the raging barbarian excles at damage output - but usually at the risk of no defence - they seems to have the lowest life expectancy of any character class in my experience. and they lack a druid's flexibility.
BardStephenFox - only two rounds. the druid was already in rhino form. I agree the raging barbarian excles at damage output - but usually at the risk of no defence - they seems to have the lowest life expectancy of any character class in my experience. and they lack a druid's flexibility.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
If you allow the druid to have 2+ rounds of buffing every combat, the druid is a god. He's got incredibly effective buffs to use. Same goes for the cleric.
In my current party, I play a paladin along with a fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, ranger, and yes, a druid. We're 3.5, and have played from 1st to 12th-level.
The druid hasn't seemed unbalanced at all. Her companion has died twice so far, and she usually finds a round to buff a luxury she can't afford. Instead, she finds it much more important to spend that first round of combat healing someone, or throwing down a flamestrike to try and drop some of the enemies quickly, etc. etc.
In my current party, I play a paladin along with a fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue, ranger, and yes, a druid. We're 3.5, and have played from 1st to 12th-level.
The druid hasn't seemed unbalanced at all. Her companion has died twice so far, and she usually finds a round to buff a luxury she can't afford. Instead, she finds it much more important to spend that first round of combat healing someone, or throwing down a flamestrike to try and drop some of the enemies quickly, etc. etc.
IcyCool
First Post
BardStephenFox said:
Indeed. So Jack, is your complaint that, given enough time to prepare and optimal conditions, a druid can really dish it out? If so, have you seen what the other classes can do in the same circumstances?
Druids have quite a bit of versatility. Given enough time to prepare, they can be quite potent.
Of course, you could replace the word "Druids" in that sentence with "Clerics", "Sorcerers", or "Wizards" and get the same thing.
BardStephenFox
I don't regard being in wildshaped form as equalling given enough time to prepare. once a druid has natrual spell why not be in animal form most of the time you're adventuring. I haven't seen a druid have several rounds to buff up. they seem quite potent without it.
I don't regard being in wildshaped form as equalling given enough time to prepare. once a druid has natrual spell why not be in animal form most of the time you're adventuring. I haven't seen a druid have several rounds to buff up. they seem quite potent without it.
