D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Help my bard contribute [Thanks guys!]

[Krinkle]

I wouldn't bother with Spring Attack. You'd be better off with Precise Shot and Point Blank shot. I would also do Craft Wand at 6th level. Since you have so few spells I prefer it to Scribe Scroll. Since the good enchantments are at a lower level than their wizard counterparts you could also do Spell Focus, Enchantment.

I would reconsider the Fighter levels. It diffuses the Bard too much and makes you wonder why you didn't just do Fighter/Rouge. At 10th level or so you can consider Fighters levels if you want to focus on combat and just be satified with Hold Monster.

If you are committed to a Rapier/Buckler I still wouldn't do Spring Attack. That's alot of feats to spend when you'll be singing and casting much of the time. Get a lot of ranks in Tumble.

If I remember correctly, Bards don't get Greater Magic Weapon in 3.5.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Cast song of discord when you reach 13th-level. I simply can't think of any other spell a 13th-level bard would choose before this one. I noticed it only works 50% of the time - otherwise it would be blatantly better than Mass Hold Monster.

If you don't mind non-core stuff, take a look at page 102 of the Arms and Equipment guide. The Bow of Songs ...

This +2 short bow allows you to use up a bardic music use as an MEA to add your Charisma bonus to attack and damage. Sveet! (Mispelt deliberarely.)

Races of Faerun has a cool bard feat as well - Shadow Song (or is it Talfirian Song?) lets you use up bardic music to boost the save DC of your spells. Normally I avoid feats like that like the plague, but the bard is already suffering from low save DCs due to the lower level of the spells he can cast.

 

[Garmorn]

Which books are you using?

R&R has some very powerful Bard only spells. Also there is a feat some where (not at home to look where) called lingering song.

About those fighter levels. They are going to hurt your bard as much as or more so then they would a wizard or cleric. I would really rethink them. at sixth level you are only two levels short of have a +2 on your inspire courage (If I remember correctly).

The bard in our group is one of the greatest buffers in the hole party because of her songs and magic. I almost have to treat the party as 1 lvl higher just because of the effects of her songs and spells.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Krinkle,

I agree with all of your comments, however I'm looking at it from a slightly different angle. My intention is not to create the strongest rapier/buckler PC I can. If that were it, I'd definitely go fighter/rogue (and did, in the last campaign I played in.)

What I'm looking for are ways to optimize a bard, who will prefer melee over ranged combat, mainly because I prefer melee to ranged combat (it's not about power--archers, especially in 3.0, were the kings of power, I just like melee for some reason. )

I took the Spring Attack feat chain because it allows him to make melee attacks, but still get away from his foe to avoid the full-attack counterattack.

I will probably pick up Point Blank Shot and Precise shot at 6th- and 9th-levels, along with a magic bow, to be able to fight ranged, but I don't think I really want to spend the lion's share of my PC's feats on ranged combat, simply because of my personal bias.

 

[Feaelin]

"2. Use ranged attacks and avoid melee.
...
I guess I just don't like the idea of hanging back."

It is a difficult role to play. I tend to be fairly gung ho and charge into the thick of things. My most recent character, however, couldn't do that. He was a dwarven cleric (which normally would have been a fairly combative character), but he had a poor strength, and I chose not to go for too many combative feats.

When he first started at 1st level, he was young and would charge into the thick of things, which often nearly got him killed. He (and I) slowly learned that he was much more useful as "support", it stuck in his craw, but he helped his companions more by hanging back and casting Prayer, bless, bull's strength...

I've seen a similar effect with the Bard. Bard can really beef up the party with support songs and spells. A group that I GM'd for greatly benefited when my brother joined with his Bard.

The strategy I've not seen mentioned so far is that a Bard should be able to AVOID a fight completely. Charm, Diplomacy, "the song that soothed the savage beast", are the weapons of choice for the Bard...

Admittedly, with certain groups, the bard's charm & diplomacy isn't useful, either the GM doesn't like having his fights dodged, or you have too many "companions" that "stab first, ask questions before their last breath wheezes out".

Feaelin

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Which books are you using?

Core. Other sources on a DM-approval basis.

R&R has some very powerful Bard only spells. Also there is a feat some where (not at home to look where) called lingering song.

Hmm. I'll have to take a look at R&R. I hadn't even thought about it, to be honest.

About those fighter levels. They are going to hurt your bard as much as or more so then they would a wizard or cleric. I would really rethink them. at sixth level you are only two levels short of have a +2 on your inspire courage (If I remember correctly).

The bard in our group is one of the greatest buffers in the hole party because of her songs and magic. I almost have to treat the party as 1 lvl higher just because of the effects of her songs and spells.

Well, the fighter levels will hurt the bard's spellcasting and bardic song, yes. But they'll help his melee and ranged capabilities. As a straight bard, I'd almost certainly have to rely on ranged combat and buffing, and I don't think that I as a player would be happy in that roll. Buffing the rest of the party and kicking butt myself is great, but buffing the rest of the party and watching them take care of business would just annoy me as a player. The fighter levels help my bard by allowing him to jump into melee with less danger to himself, and give him a higher BAB earlier in the game (though his 20th-level BAB will still be +15/+10/+5.)

So overall I'm happy with the fighter levels. They allow me to mix in some melee with the archery and singing, give me a boost in hp, and speed up my BAB progression a bit. The downside is that my spellcasting is a tad slowed, and the party will have to live with only a +1 Inspire Courage for a couple more levels.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The strategy I've not seen mentioned so far is that a Bard should be able to AVOID a fight completely. Charm, Diplomacy, "the song that soothed the savage beast", are the weapons of choice for the Bard...

Admittedly, with certain groups, the bard's charm & diplomacy isn't useful, either the GM doesn't like having his fights dodged, or you have too many "companions" that "stab first, ask questions before their last breath wheezes out".

This is very true. The Bard is the only other class beside the Paladin and Cleric who has Diplomacy as a class skill, and a compelling reason to have a high Charisma. And Bards get more skill points. My bard will definitely have points in diplomacy. His build emphasises cha, int, and dex, so he's very much a "peacemaker"-type character.

However, when the chips come down, I need to be able to pull my own weight as well.

 

[Garmorn]

Core. Other sources on a DM-approval basis.Hmm. I'll have to take a look at R&R.

Recommend that you check with your DM to get a feeling on the power level he/she is looking at. While R&R are nice the are on par magic power wise as the FR stuff. She might even be able to recommend a couple of books.

So overall I'm happy with the fighter levels. They allow me to mix in some melee with the archery and singing, give me a boost in hp, and speed up my BAB progression a bit.

Sound like you have a very good feel for what you want.

Some recommend spells for your own use:

0 Level: This level has mostly just general utilities or minor attack/distraction spells. Nothing good for self defense or buffing.

1st Level: Expeditious Retreat - for those times when you need to use spring attack against a creature with 10' reach.
Tash's Hideous Laughter: Takes subject out of the fight for 1 round/level.

2nd Level: Mirror Image, Blur, and/or Rage. At second there are some good attack spells, but you won't be getting them for two more levels at least.

I am not going into group or attack spells as they will be more dependent on your style/concept.

 

[IanB]

Mithril scale will still count as medium armor for purposes of armor proficiency, so keep that in mind.

 

[youspoonybard]

This is very true. The Bard is the only other class beside the Paladin and Cleric who has Diplomacy as a class skill...

Poor, poor, neglected Druid!