D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 lycanthrope (weretiger), warshaper+ feral template+VoP (pull up your boots the cheese is high)

[Eman Resu]

Ive been asked to DM for a group of 4 players, 12th level campaign. This party is evil and over powered according to the DM. Ive been given permission to intro the header in gesatlt and at cr 16/17

Im to intor a hermit deep in the woods, he is known to have magicals and to be a little nutty. The having magical rumors are false (VoP) this seed was planted by other DM as per my request. (as party attacks others with magicals and takes them) The hermit is going to hunt the party down and bring them to justice (slaughter them).

WILL YOU HELP ME! I wanted to creat a gestalt neutral/neutral good guy as the hermit. And as per the TITLE above I would like to create a holy terror for this party to contend with. This group is 12th level and over powered, "equal to a 14th party easy" is what other DM tells me. (to much money to many wonderous items etc.) I wanted to create an absolute terror of a beastman, something the party will fear, or will soon after meeting

a gestalt weretiger/warshaper & w/ feral template + what else....be unmerciful!

eman resu

 

[Greenfield]

There are a number of creatures in the MM III that damage armor/weapons every time they hit, dropping the item's magical bonus with each hit.

I think one is called a Dust Wight (I could be wrong). Only a CR 7, and a great cure for an over-equipped party. Did I mention that they petrify anyone/anything that comes close? And then attack and crumble the stoned people?

As for your Were-Tiger: The Lycanthropic part of the deal is a +9 ECL adjustment, and the Feral adds at least one more. Even with Gestalt, that leaves you light on actual levels to play with.

Also, the VoP can only be taken by someone who is not merely Good, but "of highest moral character", which most take to mean Lawful Good. As DM you can change/reinterpret/ignore that, but it's usually bad form for a DM to blatantly ignore the rules in order to "punish" a group.

The previous DM has allowed a mess to develop, and is counting on you to clean it up for him. Not a good position to be in. Why? Because after you're through, when he takes over again, they'll walk all over him a second time and get back everything they lost in your adventure, and then some.

Now, if you're simply planning to de-power them, you definitely want Improved Sunder, or at least Improved Disarm.

If you're trying to change their gaming philosophy from gear/power focused to RP, be prepared for disappointment. Psychologically speaking, you can't convince people that over-powered is wrong by beating them down with a bigger version of "over-powered". All you'll do is convince them that they weren't over-powered enough. I've seen it attempted many times and I've never seen it work.

If your goal is a TPK, so they have to start new characters without the power overdose, you might have a chance.

Sorry I didn't address your core question very well.

 

[Greenfield]

I was just looking at the Were Tiger andWere Bear forms in the SRD.

Based on a 1st level Warrior, the Tiger is effectively considered a tenth level creature. His full attack is 2 claws at +11 and a bite at +6. The Were Bear is also based on a 1st level Warrior and has a full attack of 2 claws at +13 and a bite at +11. Both get 6 hit dice of their animal form and +3 character adjustment, for a total of +9 ECL.

Both get Improved Grab. The Tiger also gets Pounce and Rake. The Bear has 62 hit points on average and the Tiger has 50. The Bear also has more Natural Armor.

Over all I'd be tempted to go with the Bear form over the Tiger.

But, aside from the intimidating looking stats, neither is that impressive in terms of attack bonuses. If I'm going to dedicate 10 levels to a melee monster I'd expect to do better than +11 or +13 to hit. And while a lot of natural armor is nice, the over all AC isn't impressive.

I tend to figure that character AC should probably start with a base of Level +14 to Level +17. If these guys are 12th level, and overpowered to boot, expect ACs of 30+. +11 to hit is pretty much the same as +0 at that point. And all the nasty melee combat damage in the world is wasted if you can't hit.

Now you're going to be a lot crazier than just Lycanthrope because of the Gestalt levels, but I'm thinking that if you want crazy melee you could do a lot better by taking another route.

You'd do better with a well designed Fighter.

 

[Eman Resu]

thanks for the responses thus-far. I was thinking of putting rogue or scout on otherside of the gestalt. My thought was that he would come out of nowhere, surprise, maul a PC with a combo of pounce+sneak attack x 5 attacks, then bolt off. Im not to sure this party is optimized to the hilt, it sounds like they all have very high stats because the party makes wonderous items and they all have stats thru the roof. They have +3 and +4 weapons, +3 shields comboed with +3 or 4 full plate...so while the things they have maybe expensive and as per raw (level to money ratio) they are well over funded/powered....but IMO they aint optimized! And that's the key here the DM, again just my opinion here, has allowed them access to a lot of coin, and with it they have made dozens of wonderous items to beef there stats and saves.

whats your opinion of a class to progress on the otherside of the gestalt, pretty much all kitty related on 1 side and ?? on the other?

 

[doghead]

I can't help but think that you are heading into troubled waters with this.

If you're trying to change their gaming philosophy from gear/power focused to RP, be prepared for disappointment. Psychologically speaking, you can't convince people that over-powered is wrong by beating them down with a bigger version of "over-powered". All you'll do is convince them that they weren't over-powered enough. I've seen it attempted many times and I've never seen it work.

And perhaps for limited or no long term benefit.

The previous DM has allowed a mess to develop, and is counting on you to clean it up for him. Not a good position to be in. Why? Because after you're through, when he takes over again, they'll walk all over him a second time and get back everything they lost in your adventure, and then some.

If the point is to create a powerful and dangerous adversary to challenge the characters, get the heart rate going and the creative juices flowing, thats great. I have been on the receiving end of a opponent who constantly put the PC's on the back foot and forced them to fight for their lives. It was thrilling, and drove us as players to work harder to seek victory. It was always our choice to head back into the lions den. That opponent added to the game.

If the point is to manufacture a TPK, why beat around the bush. Just have a God zap them dead. Or better still, just have the DM talk to the players about the problem.

Is there a problem?

If the PC's are 12th level, but "effectively 14th level" due to an abundance of magical items, just treat them as 14th level characters and game on. No problem.

If the DM is running set adventures and the PC's effective level is resulting in either encounters being too easy as written (and hence boring) and the amount of work involved in adapting them is making the game more like work than play for the DM, then there is a problem. Talk to the players.

If the complexity of running 14th level game is making the experience more like work than play for the DM, you guessed it, talk to the players.

Sorry, this post doesn't really go to your original question. I don't run games at this level because of the complexity. And if I came across as snarky, again I apologise. It was not my intention.

thotd

 

[Eman Resu]

OK game night lasted 3 hours, then the DM showed up, his players were already slightly less than happy, I told him to whip up a PC (we all helped) and he joined in...His party was being hunted, they were scared, not "well" optimized, and not really working well together-every man for himself (this part of ch evil they did well). I HAD THEM ON THE RUN!

I had them in a nondescript town with a lowly/humble VoP styled temple of agriculture...they murdered and sacrificed the 5th level priest and then caught fire to area...the standard chaotic evil, women/pillage/plunder routine.

Bad guys (party): cocky we are gods
1) 12 Blighter (not great but was the life of the party, funny player but class seemed gimped to me??)
2) 9 Blackguard / 3 Hexblade
3) 3 Psion (egoist) / 3 Wizard / 6 Cerebramancer - as it turned out this was the party bad ass, died but he was the badass!
4) 6th rogue 6th fighter

VS

Good Guys: or should I say, hunting party, also non optimized
A)6th Ranger elven Archer
B)10th Sorcerer 3rd scout outrider styled Halfling
C)8th Druid summoner specialist
D)10th Warlock but I made him celestial based not fiendish
E)12 2nd level Ranger / archers lead by above 6th level elf

3 days after the massacre they are found by good guys...NOTE TO ALL..the below attacks are not optimal, If I had gone in 100% the fight would have been over quickly and the evening ruined...so I staggered the attacks out this sucked up spells and buffs
and got the party paranoid enough that they would start self buffing at the slightest...then nothing....DM's Im sure you love this!
1st encounter...
1) confusion spell by B, grab the popcorn because #3 failed his own party happily starts to kill him.
2) good guys do nothing, why? - they are about to take out their most powerful party member why deflect attn away from this
3) rogue after shanking the psion takes to the shadows he suspects something??? Druid summons 3 lions and they maul the crap out of 1&2, not trying to finish off the psion I had lions not attack him he was trying to heal.

2nd encounter, 30 minutes later archers let it fly for 3 rounds as the Warlock keeps voraciously dispelling on the Blighter and the Psion everyother other round interchanged they just couldnt save to ...well save their lives!

3rd encounter
Druid goes in, I randomly roll, its the poor psion he attacks, as dire lion & summons bears this time and just eats the happless Psion he was negative 40 + hpts in one round. Party scatters they are terrified, Backguartd cant get away, gets his butt chewed up but his freedom of movement buff saves his life (for now) he kills the bears and hurts the Druid but he himself only has 42 h pTs left and is out of healing...buhahahahah!!!

4th encounter

all ranged, Sorcerer and warlock rain the pain the Druid even has a few bombs, ref saves for 5 rounds....Blackguard dies eventhough he saves most of the time...rogue is running for life only failed once....warlock chases him because warlock seeds inviso and warlock is tearing him up with his eb while flying....freagin unmerciful....it takes 6 rounds of this...rogue dies (the other DM was the rogue player) Blighter kills my 6th level ranger archer and 7 of the 2nd level archers.

5th encounter
the showdown....the Druid calls out the Blighter...the Blighter has nothing left but the Druid still has 1 sna 4th level, the blighter had 1 save or die spell left...gets eaten by the lions

so I wasnt going over board wasnt trying the TPK...and it was a fun night...players enjoyed (they quickly started making new builds)

EMAN

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I realize I'm late to offering ideas, but might I suggest that a Rust Monster Mount might make the next encounter a bit more interesting?

At 10HD with a solid character riding on top, this could seriously mess somebody up. Make your lowly hermit somebody that raises a few of these, and you'll have any party crying.

Crossbreed these with Dragons for the Half Dragon template, and you're just mean. They'll fly.
Make it a Rust Dragon.