D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 monk...lawful = disciplined?

[rusty2667]

This is an ongoing little argument within my gaming group; does being lawful directly translate to being disciplined? The monk alignment lawful limitation is the specific example of this idea.

I take the stance that lawful does not directly translate to disciplined, although a lawfully aligned person is more likely to live a disciplined lifestyle. An example from my own experience: I know people who practice martial arts who are disciplined (practice forms daily, attention to detail,etc) but are not lawful personalities (particularly drug laws).

Definition of discipline from dictionary.com
1 activity,exercise,or a regimen that develops or improves askill;training:A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.

2 training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.

What do you think?

 

[Dandu]

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I know people who practice martial arts who are disciplined (practice forms daily, attention to detail,etc) but are not lawful personalities (particularly drug laws).

Dandu is exactly correct (he has to be, since he merely quoted the Player's Handbook to you), but in light of your chosen example, I just wanted to make sure you understand that being Lawful in D&D has very little to do with obeying rules, just as being Chaotic in D&D has nothing to do with acting randomly.

 

[irdeggman]

This is an ongoing little argument within my gaming group; does being lawful directly translate to being disciplined? The monk alignment lawful limitation is the specific example of this idea.

I take the stance that lawful does not directly translate to disciplined, although a lawfully aligned person is more likely to live a disciplined lifestyle. An example from my own experience: I know people who practice martial arts who are disciplined (practice forms daily, attention to detail,etc) but are not lawful personalities (particularly drug laws).

Definition of discipline from dictionary.com
1 activity,exercise,or a regimen that develops or improves askill;training:A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.

2 training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.

What do you think?

Never try to use real life as an absolute basis for how D&D frames things - it doesn't work. D&D is a fantasy game where many things that are a certain way in reafl life are not the same way in the game world.

If the class description for a monk says that it requires strict discipline and implies that is why they need to be lawful (well it almost comes out and days that is why they are lawful. Then in D&D terms lawful also has a basis in discline.

There are other references in the D&D definition of lawful that implies such a thing aslo.

PHB pg 104

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority,
honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Tellng the truth and keeping their word are both examples of being disciplined.

 

[pawsplay]

No. I teach a personal and social skills class, and one of the first things we touch on is that if you lack discipline, try adding structure.

 

[Popertop]

I don't think monk is good enough to be restricted to lawful,
sure it fits flavor wise I guess, but I'm sure non-chaotic would be just as good, if not better for the class.
That's just my personal opinion, but they say monks come from monastary, and many monastaries can have different belief systems, different structure and different approach to life.

 

[Dandu]

Counterpoint: Jackie Chan in Drunken Master.

 

[pawsplay]

Really, restricting Monk to lawful characters makes no sense at all. The Wu Dan monks were pretty lawful, but the Shao Lin have more of a NG rep, and Zen tends to gravitate toward Chaos (IMO).

 

[Jhaelen]

Really, alignments make no sense at all. The game would be better off without them.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Monks suffer from being created not as an archtype for any type of eastern philosophy or religious idea, nor as an archtype of an eastern style hero, but of being a really terrible and laughably stupid portrayal of equally terrible and stupid 70's kung fu movies. They're lawful because monks sadly never progressed past the idea of some white guy yellowfacing as a funny little asian guy who drinks green tea and invents nonsensical "proverbs."