D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 sohei balance?

[jasin]

What do you think about the power level of the 3.5 sohei, updated in Dragon?

The most obvious comparisons is with the paladin:

Same HD, same Fort and Ref saves, both have crappy skills.

On the defense: paladin gets Cha modifier to saves and immunity to disease, the sohei gets a good Will save, Deflect Arrows and Diehard. Let's say about even? Maybe favoring the sohei a bit once the DR starts to kick in.

On the offense: a paladin gets smite evil and the mount. The sohei gets frenzy. About even?

Let's say the spells are about even.

The sohei doesn't need a high Cha, so he can afford slightly higher Str and/or Con and/or Dex.

But! The sohei has medium BAB! Are any of the sohei's abilities really that much better than I assume, good enough to offset medium BAB? I suppose at high levels; divine power works wonders. But it's a long wait until 4th-level spells with paladin/ranger-type spellcasting.

Also, while it's good that the flurry penalty while in frenzy decreases, I don't like the way it makes for somewhat erratic advancement of attack bonus; there are levels where your attack bonus (considered when frenzying) doesn't advance at all, and there are levels (11th and 20th) where it advances by +3(!): BAB +1, frenzy Str bonus increases, frenzy flurry penalty decreases.

Maybe it'd be better if the flurry penalty decreases came in at the levels where BAB doesn't increase, like with the 3.5 monk, making the whole progression smoother? So the flurry penalty would be -2 at 1st, -1 at 5th, and +0 at 13th? There's no BAB increase at 9th or 17th either, but they're followed (relatively...) quickly by 11th and 20th, where the frenzy bonuses increase.

But even so, I'm not sure the sohei can favorably compare to the paladin (or the barbarian). What if they got the UA whirling frenzy + speed increase instead of frenzy as it is now? So +4/+6/+8 instead of +2/+4/+6, but no decreasing penalty for flurrying? It'd help them out the most in the low levels, where help is most needed, IMO.

Any experiences, thoughts? Has anyone played a sohei, either the updated one or the original OA version?

 

[Ferret]

Damn my lack of that issue! That was the one thing I like when I skimmed through OA!

Looks balanced from what I can see.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

Well in 3.0 the Shoei was a crapy class, and it doen´t changed in 3.5. I see no problem in giving them a good BAB.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I think the sohei is most aptly compared to the barbarain.

But as far as balancing 'em goes I'd proably just give them monk like flurry and let them use it even while not in a frenzy. I'd also give them a barbarians DR advancement.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

IMO, the Sohei is one of the coolest classes I've seen. I haven't gotten a look at the revised version, though. Were there significant changes?

 

[hong]

Well in 3.0 the Shoei was a crapy class, and it doen´t changed in 3.5. I see no problem in giving them a good BAB.

Interesting, the opinion in our group seems to be the opposite, both in 3.0 and 3.5.

They're basically like an evenly-split barb/cleric. Check out the spell list: divine favour, divine power, GMW, etc. The caster level hit is a bear, though.

 

[jasin]

Interesting, the opinion in our group seems to be the opposite, both in 3.0 and 3.5.

What, that they're strong (too strong)?

I just don't see it. The warrior classes get good BAB + specials: feats, favored enemies, smite, rage. The monk gets medium BAB, but the monk's flurry can be even better than good BAB, against soft opponents. The sohei gets frenzy, which about pulls it even with good BAB, but that leaves little else to pull it beyond just good BAB.

But ideally, I wouldn't just give them good BAB. There's other abilities that might be appropriate, but I feel they need something.

They're basically like an evenly-split barb/cleric. Check out the spell list: divine favour, divine power, GMW, etc. The caster level hit is a bear, though.

A Bbn10/Clr10 will have more and better spells at the same caster level, better BAB, an only slightly weaker rage (although less of them). OK, significantly weaker DR. But it still seems a better choice than the sohei, from a purely powergaming standpoint. And that's an evenly-split caster, whose other half relies on an ability that cuts off your spells; hardly the munchkin's choice.

Maybe they should get full caster level? It would help immensely, with divine favor and shield of faith on their list. But that's still good for only a fight or two per day, until at least mid levels. And it's the low levels that are lacking the most, IMO. The power boost from greater frenzy at 11th is significant: the benefits more than double, compared to regular frenzy: +4 Str and Dex, +20 ft. speed instead of +2/+2/+10 and the flurry penalty decreases.

 

[jasin]

Damn my lack of that issue! That was the one thing I like when I skimmed through OA!

Looks balanced from what I can see.

Is there somewhere you disagree with my analysis?

As much as I like the sohei as a concept, it just seems weak (even the beefed up 3.5 version). As I've said above, it seems to compare just about right to a paladin... and then you get medium BAB and the paladin gets good BAB, and that's it. That's a pretty big hit for a melee character.

 

[hong]

A Bbn10/Clr10 will have more and better spells at the same caster level, better BAB, an only slightly weaker rage (although less of them). OK, significantly weaker DR. But it still seems a better choice than the sohei, from a purely powergaming standpoint. And that's an evenly-split caster, whose other half relies on an ability that cuts off your spells; hardly the munchkin's choice.

Maybe they should get full caster level? It would help immensely, with divine favor and shield of faith on their list. But that's still good for only a fight or two per day, until at least mid levels. And it's the low levels that are lacking the most, IMO. The power boost from greater frenzy at 11th is significant: the benefits more than double, compared to regular frenzy: +4 Str and Dex, +20 ft. speed instead of +2/+2/+10 and the flurry penalty decreases.

I think you're underestimating the Weapon Focus feat they get at 1st level. That basically means they're on par with a fighter type until 4th, and only 1 behind until 8th.

At high levels, the greater frenzy is pretty kickbutt. +4 on Str and Dex, plus a reduced flurry penalty, means an 11th level sohei's attack bonus is effectively equal to a single-classed barb with the UA frenzy ability when flurrying. The sohei's damage bonus and AC/Ref save bonus are lower, but they also get to move faster.

The sohei's DR also shouldn't be discounted. IME barbs tend to die like flies because while they dish out the damage, they also soak lots of it in return. The nature of the class means they're going to be in melee a lot of the time, and anything that reduces damage taken is a plus. I'd take the DR over the barb/cleric's extra hp any day.

 

[Count Arioch the 28t]

What I did to the sohei was:

1. Take away frenzy completely, make flurry usable with any weapon at any time.

2. Give good reflex saves

3. Give them armored speed bonuses. (First, they got to ignore penalties for wearing heavy armor, then they got speed bonuses, but not as fast as a monk gains them, they're still slower than monks.)

4. Counted their full level for spellcasting purposes. (Not just reserved for the sohei, I do the same thing for Paladins, Rangers, and Hexblades as well.)