D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Stacking the same Meta-magic feat

[franzel]

Improved Metamagic has already been erratad to apply its reduction
to the spell, not each feat applied to the spell so it's no longer (as) broken
anyway.

Where (and when) was this in an errata? It's not in the newly released ELH errata list.

Thanks,

franzel

 

[green slime]

Where (and when) was this in an errata? It's not in the newly released ELH errata list.

Thanks,

franzel

Such an errata would render the feat absolutely pointless:

It would then be far better to take Improved Spell Capacity, to gain an extra high level spell slot (or more if you have a high enough spellcasting stat). This high level spell slot would perform the same function as the Improved Metamafic feat, AND you still have all lower spell slots available...

It was a suggestion that was bandied about the various boards, but I doubt we will actually see it as an errata.

 

[franzel]

Such an errata would render the feat absolutely pointless:

It would then be far better to take Improved Spell Capacity, to gain an extra high level spell slot (or more if you have a high enough spellcasting stat). This high level spell slot would perform the same function as the Improved Metamafic feat, AND you still have all lower spell slots available...

It was a suggestion that was bandied about the various boards, but I doubt we will actually see it as an errata.

Well, I certainly agree with you, green slime. The only reason I asked is because Pyrex sounded very sure that this was erratad.

I can't imagine why it would be changed either, and we would probably just ignore the change, but good to know that it hasn't been done and that we didn't miss something.

franzel

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Seriously, this was not a factor that "broke" ELH. ELH had so much wrong with it, so much that was ill-thought, that this was not a factor. The "thing" that broke ELH was that nobody ever actually sat down and thought what the consequences would be of some of the abilities introduced.

I'd like to hear of a planned spell that was removed due to it being "broken" by multiple empowers (or any other stackable metamagic feat).

You're right ... but it just made it worse, just like it took some already overpowered PrCs and made them worse, etc.

As for new spells, you'd have to be a playtester, and then break NDA.

 

[Andion Isurand]

Here is the 3.5 caption concerning this. Just in case one needs it.

from the 3.5 PHB, pg. 88

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. A silent, stilled version of charm person, for example, would be prepared and cast as a 3rd-level spell (a 1st-level spell increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats). You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell (for instance, you can't cast a twice-empowered magic missle to get +100% damage).

This might help you guys.

 

[Nail]

Thanks, Andion, but we knew that. That's what this thread is about: Is this limitation a good idea, or not?

IMO, it's not a good idea. Those spells that were exposed as broken via the meta-magic feats have been (mostly) fixed. In fact, even with multiple meta-magics, the feats themselves are still (mostly) lame.

Widen Spell is the worst of the lot, actually. Only a very few spells are worth this kind of trouble, and only against hordes of small mooks.

As for the doubly widened fireball => the area is doubled twice, not doubled sequentially. (Total area would be 60' r, not 80' r.) That's the way all doublings, triplings, etc work in 3e D&D.

 

[FrankTrollman]

But Nail, you are forgetting Andion's own words of wisdom:

I've noticed that many people would rather complain and be lazy bums than try to change. God forbid such people ever open their eyes, ears and minds to new wisdom.

Obviously, by questioning whether something is a good idea or not, and carefully evaluating its effects on the game as a whole we are just being lazy bums. Only by not asking questions can we gain new wisdom!

-Frank

 

[Nail]

But Nail, you are forgetting Andion's own words of wisdom:....

Oh, I'm not forgetting them. I'm ignoring them. Different.

Kinda like I'm ignoring his misquoted sig.

 

[Olive]

This might help you guys.

But it wasn't banned in 3.0. And the reason we're discussing this is becuase mo and me (his DM) wanted opinions on whether or not stacking metamagic would be game breaking.

No one was debating the rule as it exists in 3.5.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In a 3.0 core setting, it breaks Simulacrum and that stat-boosting spells.

If you allow Magic of Faerun, ELH or lots of other splatbooks that give out new spells and/or Improved Metamagic, then it's horibbly broke.