D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Succubus Lichfiend Cr Madness

[anest1s]

Ok here it goes.
A succubus lich-fiend with 3 cleric/2 paladin/1 Mystic Wanderer (Magic of Faerun) will be CR 7+3+2=12?


It will have an AC of 30-something and saves of +25-something, and some crazy lich abilities with equally high save.

Somehow I think I am doing something wrong.
Will the PCs be able to beat that thing at level, lets say 12? It sure looks hard enough, even without feats and gear.

 

[Dandu]

I might be able to, but that's me...

 

[anest1s]

I might be able to, but that's me...

what have I done.

 

[Sekhmet]

Isn't Succubus a +6 and a lichfiend +4?

 

[Arkhandus]

Umm, succubi have the Evil subtype and as such they are treated as evil-aligned regardless of their actual alignment. So they cannot become paladins. Unless you're using the Paladin of Slaughter variant from Unearthed Arcana, I guess, but those have some different class features from a standard paladin. A standard Paladin or a Paladin of Tyranny wouldn't fit since Mystic Wanderer requires nonlawful alignment.

Evil Subtype
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

I don't have the book for Lichfiends, so I don't know their CR adjustment, but the class levels alone would bring the succubus up to CR 13, plus whatever the Lichfiend template adds.

 

[Sekhmet]

I don't have the book for Lichfiends, so I don't know their CR adjustment, but the class levels alone would bring the succubus up to CR 13, plus whatever the Lichfiend template adds.

Lichfiends have the same LA as Lich.

 

[Dog Moon]

As usual, I would say it depends on the group, how much they min-max and how much loot they've received. Right now, as I'm DMing, the PCs are pretty min-maxed and have decent gear. They can easily take a lot of monsters a few CRs above their level. However, occasionally they'll bump into something scary at their CR that they have trouble taking. Whenever I do anything special, I always have to take into consideration what the group is capable of.

It seems like you need to do this as well. Look at what your group is made of and how they attack. Do they keep rattling off to-hit rolls of 30s or is mid-20s the best they are capable? Does the caster have DCs of like 15-16 for a 1st level spells or is it closer to 19-20? That will help you determine whether or not you think they can take it.

Based off what I've seen, the CR is indeed 13 [or 12 if you decide to follow the rules that say for adding a non-effective class that the CR is +1 per 2 levels] plus Lichfiend, which is like 2-4 iirc, so the CR of the creature should be 15-17. So that should up their level a little as well.

Lastly, it's fine to have Succubi Paladins if you want to, especially if it makes sense in your mind. That is your prerogative as a DM. This weekend I put the party up against a modified 2e version of a Hydra instead of the Pathfinder version. Yep, the main body was INVULNERABLE. I like to think of the rules more as guidelines.

 

[anest1s]

Isn't Succubus a +6 and a lichfiend +4?

thats the LA thay have, the Cr is lower (7 for the succubus and +2 for the lich)

Umm, succubi have the Evil subtype and as such they are treated as evil-aligned regardless of their actual alignment. So they cannot become paladins. Unless you're using the Paladin of Slaughter variant from Unearthed Arcana, I guess, but those have some different class features from a standard paladin. A standard Paladin or a Paladin of Tyranny wouldn't fit since Mystic Wanderer requires nonlawful alignment.



I don't have the book for Lichfiends, so I don't know their CR adjustment, but the class levels alone would bring the succubus up to CR 13, plus whatever the Lichfiend template adds.

Paladin of Slaughter, yes- (mostly because demons are CE though)
Lichfiend is exactly like the Lich (except for some minor details)

Lichfiends have the same LA as Lich.

As usual, I would say it depends on the group, how much they min-max and how much loot they've received. Right now, as I'm DMing, the PCs are pretty min-maxed and have decent gear. They can easily take a lot of monsters a few CRs above their level. However, occasionally they'll bump into something scary at their CR that they have trouble taking. Whenever I do anything special, I always have to take into consideration what the group is capable of.

It seems like you need to do this as well. Look at what your group is made of and how they attack. Do they keep rattling off to-hit rolls of 30s or is mid-20s the best they are capable? Does the caster have DCs of like 15-16 for a 1st level spells or is it closer to 19-20? That will help you determine whether or not you think they can take it.

They have optimized characters, but they play them without much thinking. Very high ability scores too. Usually the harder I press the harder they survive, end more usually their highest enemy is themselves

However, I want to know if an average party of that level can win. If it is higher Cr than what I thought then I don't want to depend on luck too much and use it anywayz.

Based off what I've seen, the CR is indeed 13 [or 12 if you decide to follow the rules that say for adding a non-effective class that the CR is +1 per 2 levels] plus Lichfiend, which is like 2-4 iirc, so the CR of the creature should be 15-17. So that should up their level a little as well.

I calculated the CR like that:
7 cr for base succubus
+2 cr for lich
+3 cr for 6 non-associated class levels (I don't really think paladin and cleric have something to do with the succubus, except for using the CHA. But I could be wrong at this point?)

The ECL would be 22 though. (6HD+6LA+4LA[lich]+6 class levels)

 

[Dandu]

Umm, succubi have the Evil subtype and as such they are treated as evil-aligned regardless of their actual alignment. So they cannot become paladins.

Actually...

 

[Sekhmet]

Actually...

"Always Chaotic Evil" deals critical damage to Wizard's Employee Who Hates The Rules.
WEWHTR falls in combat.