D&D 3E/3.5 (3.5) The Paladin Sucks? Also, how to fix it?

[Icyshadowlord]

Okay, I couldn't help but notice this being said here and there while I surfed around the internet, but I can't keep it out of my head now that I have seen it: The paladins in 3.5 suck, they say.
And now I ask: How much do they exactly suck? Are they on the Monk's level of fail?

Also, how do you guys think of fixing it? Giving more spells earlier, giving some other cool knight-in-holy-armor kind of powers, or maybe by slapping it some maneuvers and stances from Tome of Battles? (Actually, this last choice would seem cool if you ask me as a DM)

 

[Alexander123]

Yes, a paladin is a tier 5 class like the monk.

I don't have tome of battle so I don't know whether there is anything in there for paladins but that would be my suggestion.

 

[Dandu]

Okay, I couldn't help but notice this being said here and there while I surfed around the internet, but I can't keep it out of my head now that I have seen it: The paladins in 3.5 suck, they say.
And now I ask: How much do they exactly suck? Are they on the Monk's level of fail?

Few things are on the Monk's level. I'd place closer to the Figther.

Also, how do you guys think of fixing it? Giving more spells earlier, giving some other cool knight-in-holy-armor kind of powers, or maybe by slapping it some maneuvers and stances from Tome of Battles? (Actually, this last choice would seem cool if you ask me as a DM)

Just replace it with the Crusader.

 

[Icyshadowlord]

The only problem is that the Crusader "kinda" lacks the Paladin feel to it. Unless you tweak it a bit, like putting the "Lawful Good only" requirement of a regular Paladin on it and some other cool stuff (maybe?). Otherwise, the Crusader is just a Paladin knockoff with no divine magic who just does his job better.

 

[Fallenibilis]

To me Pathfinder did a fairly good job of fixing what i felt was wrong with the Paladin class. Paladin - Pathfinder_OGC

Fallenibilis

 

[Icyshadowlord]

To me Pathfinder did a fairly good job of fixing what i felt was wrong with the Paladin class. Paladin - Pathfinder_OGC

Fallenibilis

Well, the problem with using Pathfinder as a solution for this situation comes here (for my campaigns at least): If I ask for a Pathfinder Paladin, the rest of the group will want Pathfinder versions of their own classes as well, which leads to the Paladin being on square one when it comes to the actual upgrade.

Why, you might ask? It's because my group has played both 3.5 AND Pathfinder, and we have both books.

Also, assuming we use Pathfinder as a Paladin fix, how would the Gray Guard work in Pathfinder then? Since I love the PrC, not just due to abilities, but also thanks to the damned delicious flavor.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Trailblazer did a modest boost to the Paladin.

-Give the paladin tower shield.
-Give the paladin 4+Int skill points.
-Make it so that the Paladin didn't lose the smite with a missed attack, and let the paladin's used smites recharge after a short rest.
-Spellcasting as early as 2nd level and got up to 5th level spells. (not very huge)
-Gave the paladin the entire cleric spell list. (nice, but not a game changer)
-Turned the holy sword spell and bless weapon spell into class abilities.
-Let the lay on hands power recharge after short rests.
-Have cure disease do more things at higher levels, like lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse.

The big one is expanding the use of smite, IMO. That's the iconic 3.x paladin schtick. Letting the paladin do that more reliably, more often, goes a ways to make the paladin more effective. More can be done for sure.

I think the concept of turning holy sword and bless weapon into class abilities is on the right path. Maybe even more power to charge up the weapon along those divine themes can be developed . . .

 

[Dandu]

Sorry, doubletap.

 

[Dandu]

The only problem is that the Crusader "kinda" lacks the Paladin feel to it.

What is this feel?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

1. Give the paladin more smites. I'd suggest 3+Cha times per day, and don't have him use up a smite attempt on a missed attack.

2. Restrict the paladin spell list to those in the PHB, but let him use any spell on his list without having to prepare it.