D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Threat ranges no longer stack!

[Dimwhit]

Yet another example of the game designers changint the rules based on the munchkins and not the standard player. I've never seen anyone in my campaigns actually have a 12-20 threat range. And what about the Fighter that only threats on a 20? This change certainly penalizes him a lot more.

So Imp Crit and Keen won't stack at all? I'm not sure Imp Crit could be considered an "effect" that expands the threat range, but the changes we're seeing...

Edited for grammar

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Keen should definitely not be any more than a +1, because in all of the cases I've looked at (rapier, falchion, scythe, heavy pick) it actually does less for the average damage than adding a +1 does.

This is broadly true, yes. It's not invariably true. For example, take a falchion +3 vs. a falchion +2, keen.

Let's suppose that the the person attacking with the weapons hits on a 5+ with the keen weapon, and 4+ with the +3 weapon.

Let's say that they have a 26 Str and weapon specialization. That ends up being +14 to damage before the magic adds -- then +2 for the keen weapon and +3 for the normal weapon, for a total of +16 and +17. Let's say that they don't have Improved Crit, just to keep things simple (I actually don't think that that's relevent).

The expected damage per hit of the +3 weapon is:

1.15 * (2d4 + 17) = 1.15 * (5 + 17) = 1.15 * 22 = 25.3

The expected damage per hit of the keen weapon is:

1.30 * (2d4 + 16) = 1.3 * (5 + 16) = 1.3 * 21 = 27.3

And then the odds of hitting are 80% for the keen weapon and 85% for the +3 weapon, so:

25.3 * .85 = 21.505

27.3 * .8 = 21.84

So a very mild bonus for the keen weapon.

 

[Storm Raven]

Wise change, if you ask me.

More proof that putting Andy Collins on the revision team was a moronic move. "I, Andy, didn't like it" is a stupid reason for making a change, and that seems to be the reason for about half the changes thus far.

 

[geezerjoe]

In the game that I currently play in, one of the tanks is a halfling fighter that dual wields shortswords. He's spent a LOT of time building up his ability with the swords to the point that he hits often and almost always crits unfortunately he still doesn't do the damage that my cleric of st cuthbert can do with Divine Favor and Rigtheous Might in effect (purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)

I'm not sure that I like the rule. If I'm not getting critted as much from the villians, then my heavy fortification armor looses a little of its shine. "Crit?!? On me?!?! Oh I don't think so!!!" will get said a LOT less

l8r

Joe2Old

 

[Nail]

Once again knee-jerk reaction to changes trumps reasoning.

 

[Metalsmith]

The expected damage per hit of the +3 weapon is:

1.15 * (2d4 + 17) = 1.15 * (5 + 17) = 1.15 * 22 = 25.3

The expected damage per hit of the keen weapon is:

1.30 * (2d4 + 16) = 1.3 * (5 + 16) = 1.3 * 21 = 27.3

And then the odds of hitting are 80% for the keen weapon and 85% for the +3 weapon, so:

25.3 * .85 = 21.505

27.3 * .8 = 21.84

So a very mild bonus for the keen weapon.

Yes a mild bonus. Only if you use a +2 weapon. There are other ways to get a keen weapon, like a Scbbard of Keeness. Now you can Keen your +3 Weapon and recieve a Damage output of

27.3 * .85 = 23.205 thats a little better its about an %8 increase.

Now when you start to stack the other ways to increace your Threat range, Improved Critical, Duo Dimensional Hands with Grafted Weapon, Assassin Sense, Nuclear Poop Vision ect...... The lead just keeps on going. Quickly you run into the #'s where every hit is a threat.

Additionaly the player, after going to the above lengths to raise his Threat Range to absurd levels he's piling on every chance to raise his Damage. Rhino Hide Barding, Sprited Charge, Tripping an Opponent and then Power Attacking. Divine Favor, Attacking while Invisible, and lets not forget Elemental Burst.

Assuming the Weapon Master still Increases the Threat Range of his weapon by 2, I'm Fine with this change.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Once again knee-jerk reaction to changes trumps reasoning.

have you done the math to back that assesment up??

Mike's here maybe he can bust out some math to show what kind of damage bonus you need in order for a rapier to beat out a long sword, and a falchion to beat out a two handed sword, before and after this change.

I suspect, but suck at math so can't confirm that you need in the +10 range of bonus damage for the stackable crits style before the falchion or rapier overtakes the twho hander and long sword. And its probably more like +13 damage bonus after this change.

That means to me other than very speicifc, long term builds you will never see people use these weapons for game mechainic reasons again. And IMO that would suck.

 

[Nail]

Now when you start to stack the other ways to increace your Threat range....

Uhmmm.......

Maybe you didn't read the title of this thread. ??

 

[Croaker]

quoted from Hong

... it will, however, become more consistent with d20 Modern, Star Wars, and other d20 games, where crits tend to be a lot less common than in 3E. I suspect this isn't an insignificant part of their thinking.

In the other d20 games crits are much more significant than in D&D, since they can mean instant incapacitation or death for any character, regardless of level. In Star Wars, crits do damage directly to WPs which go up very slowly, so a 20th level character is little better off than a 1st level character. Similarly, in d20 Modern, a crit is quite likely to hit the massive damage threshold, which means a risk of incapacitation or unconsciousness, again regardless of level. Compare these to D&D, where a min-maxed 12-20 threat range weapon can do maybe 20-30 points on a successful crit, which is really a fairly small chunk of the kinds of monsters one would fight at 8th level or higher. There is no chance for a one-hit incapacitation with a x2 crit in D&D.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Uhmmm.......

Maybe you didn't read the title of this thread. ??

I think he's saying its a good change because in the past you had not only keen and impr crit that stacked, but all these other ways. So a rule agaisnt stacking is good.