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[3.5] WotC theory on multi-class spellcasters
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
Aaron2
Explorer
My idea
I had an idea the other day that got shot to heck on r.g.f.d. Basically, a caster's caster level is equal to
Class Level + 1/2 Class level in spellcasting class (wiz, Clr, Dru) + 1/4 Class level in all other classes. But your effective caster level can never be more than double your levels in the class.
Thus a Wiz 10 / Clr 10 would be, effectively a Wiz 15 / Clr 15 (same as mystic theurge) while a Clr 19 / Wiz 1 would only be a 2nd level Wizard.
Its kludgy and I'm not sure how to handle the part-time casters (such as Rangers).
Aaron
I had an idea the other day that got shot to heck on r.g.f.d. Basically, a caster's caster level is equal to
Class Level + 1/2 Class level in spellcasting class (wiz, Clr, Dru) + 1/4 Class level in all other classes. But your effective caster level can never be more than double your levels in the class.
Thus a Wiz 10 / Clr 10 would be, effectively a Wiz 15 / Clr 15 (same as mystic theurge) while a Clr 19 / Wiz 1 would only be a 2nd level Wizard.
Its kludgy and I'm not sure how to handle the part-time casters (such as Rangers).
Aaron
WizarDru
Adventurer
Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge
Well, I agree, to a point. I don't know that I'd allow the Theurge much use in a game of mine just yet...but I'll burn that bridge when I come to it. But based on Dave Noonan's comments, I don't think it'll be WotC that does it.
And as we all know...I am NEVER wrong, d00d.
hong said:
Well, I agree, to a point. I don't know that I'd allow the Theurge much use in a game of mine just yet...but I'll burn that bridge when I come to it. But based on Dave Noonan's comments, I don't think it'll be WotC that does it.
And as we all know...I am NEVER wrong, d00d.
Re: My idea
Don't take it too hard. I proposed nerfing haste barely 7 months after 3E's release, in March 2001, and got howled down by the group.
Ha! And now they see I was right all along!
So anyway, IMO fiddling with caster levels is definitely something worth looking at, regardless of naysayers.
Aaron2 said:
Don't take it too hard. I proposed nerfing haste barely 7 months after 3E's release, in March 2001, and got howled down by the group.
Ha! And now they see I was right all along!
So anyway, IMO fiddling with caster levels is definitely something worth looking at, regardless of naysayers.
Deadguy
First Post
Re: My idea
Aaron, just to let you know that in fact I already use a similar system, albeit simpler:
Caster Level = Spellcaster Class Level + 1/2(sum of all other classes)
max of double caster level
So, for example, a Cleric/Fighter 4/4 has a 4th level Cleric's access to spells, but casts them as though he were 6th level. Where the class has half-class level access to spellcasting (e.g. Ranger), this total is halved too.
An actual campaign example is the PC Bard/Wizard 4/5, whose caster level is 6 as a Bard, and 7 as a Wizard. He finds this works well.
It doesn't solve entirely the problem of the loss of access to higher level spell slots, but the extra oopmh is some compensation, without making multi-classing too advantageous.
Just so you know that it can work, regardless of what some on r.g.f.dnd say (and I can imagine).
EDIT: forgot to add that hong was my original inspiration for this approach, even though he didn't go down this path for his own campaign.
Aaron, just to let you know that in fact I already use a similar system, albeit simpler:
Caster Level = Spellcaster Class Level + 1/2(sum of all other classes)
max of double caster level
So, for example, a Cleric/Fighter 4/4 has a 4th level Cleric's access to spells, but casts them as though he were 6th level. Where the class has half-class level access to spellcasting (e.g. Ranger), this total is halved too.
An actual campaign example is the PC Bard/Wizard 4/5, whose caster level is 6 as a Bard, and 7 as a Wizard. He finds this works well.
It doesn't solve entirely the problem of the loss of access to higher level spell slots, but the extra oopmh is some compensation, without making multi-classing too advantageous.
Just so you know that it can work, regardless of what some on r.g.f.dnd say (and I can imagine).
EDIT: forgot to add that hong was my original inspiration for this approach, even though he didn't go down this path for his own campaign.
Last edited:
TwoSix
"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
The problem with multiclass spellcasters is the fact that the design of the magic system is inherently flawed. It doesn't integrate with the class system very well. The reason fighter levels, barbarian levels, and rogue levels can stack so well is that all the levels you gain, from 1 to 20, give about the same increase. What does gaining the 1st level of figther give you? d10 HD, +1 BAB, a Fort save increase, and a bonus feat. What does the 20th level of fighter give you? Basically, the same thing. No matter what you level you reach in these classes, you're gaining the same amount of increase each level.
The spellcasting classes don't work that way. Gaining a level of Wiz1 gives you access to 1st level spells and some cantrips. Gaining a level of Wiz15 gives you access to 8th level spells, 8th level spell slots, several lower levels spell slots, plus an increase in the power, effectiveness, and frequency of all the abilities the wizard previously had. Effectively, spellcasting power increase exponentially with the number of spellcaster levels you have. Every other ability in the game increases with character level. The rate may change from class to class, but they all increase linearly. If spellcasting ability increased with class level, and taking levels in spellcasting levels increased the breadth and depth of magical power, that would make multiclassing spellcasters worthwhile.
But then, this is all 4e talk.
The spellcasting classes don't work that way. Gaining a level of Wiz1 gives you access to 1st level spells and some cantrips. Gaining a level of Wiz15 gives you access to 8th level spells, 8th level spell slots, several lower levels spell slots, plus an increase in the power, effectiveness, and frequency of all the abilities the wizard previously had. Effectively, spellcasting power increase exponentially with the number of spellcaster levels you have. Every other ability in the game increases with character level. The rate may change from class to class, but they all increase linearly. If spellcasting ability increased with class level, and taking levels in spellcasting levels increased the breadth and depth of magical power, that would make multiclassing spellcasters worthwhile.
But then, this is all 4e talk.
Red Baron
First Post
Re: Re: Mystic Theurge
But don't get me wrong -- just trying to keep things fair. I actually don't mind the MT PrC.
But note that you can be a Wiz3/Clr3/MT2 and toss *a lot* of 3rd-level spells, while your 8th-level Wiz companion has just a few 4th-level spells...WizarDru said:
But don't get me wrong -- just trying to keep things fair. I actually don't mind the MT PrC.
Petrosian said:
Hmm.... Cleric 5 / Wizard 5 / Mystic Theurge 10 = 15th level clerical casting & 15th level Wizard casting. Looks like someone DID find a mechanic to make this work.
sithramir said:
Um... no.
There are basically 3 good builds of a 20th level Mystic Theurge. They are:
Wiz 7 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 10
This character casts up to 9th level wizard spells at caster level 17 and up to 7th level cleric spells at caster level 13.
Cleric 7 / Wiz 3 / Mystic Theurge 10
This character casts up to 9th level cleric spells at caster level 17 and up to 7th level wizard spells at caster level 13.
Wiz 5 / Cleric 5 / Mystic Theurge 10
This character casts up to 8th level spells from both classes at caster level 15. He can NOT cast ANY 9th level spells.
The only way to get 9th level spells in both classes at caster level 20 would be with epic levels:
Wiz 5 / Cleric 5 / Mystic Theurge 15
hong said:
Take a look at Arcane Trickster in Tome and Blood. It grants +1 caster level at every level AND grants full sneak attack progression. Of course it doesn't grant some of the other Rogue class abilities, but this is still awfully close to leveling in both Rogue and Wizard at the same time. The precedent has already been set.
Gatchaba Goose
WizarDru
Adventurer
Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge
True, he will have more spells overall. But remember, unless the characters on a high-point buy or rolls well on a random system, he's gonna be short somewhere, stat-wise. Usually that will mean he'll either be nothing but spells (and thus his saves will suffer, as well as social interaction, etc.) or he's losing his bonuses and potentially some spell slots. Under 28 pt buy, which is standard for Greyhawk, he's not getting an 18 INT and 18 WIS. At 32 point buy, which is FR standard, he CAN get them...and have 8s in the other four stats.
The MT has a lot of nice benefits, but some hidden costs.
Red Baron said:
True, he will have more spells overall. But remember, unless the characters on a high-point buy or rolls well on a random system, he's gonna be short somewhere, stat-wise. Usually that will mean he'll either be nothing but spells (and thus his saves will suffer, as well as social interaction, etc.) or he's losing his bonuses and potentially some spell slots. Under 28 pt buy, which is standard for Greyhawk, he's not getting an 18 INT and 18 WIS. At 32 point buy, which is FR standard, he CAN get them...and have 8s in the other four stats.
The MT has a lot of nice benefits, but some hidden costs.
