D&D 3E/3.5 3.5e Swordsage questions.

[vageta31]

So I'm working on a build involving a few levels of swordsage and had a few questions.

1. Initiator levels. So the math is SS level + 1/2 other class levels + PrC levels = initiator levels? So if I did say.. rogue/fighter for the first 5 levels and took SS at 6, it'd count as initiator 3 or 4(not sure how you round..) Then at 7 I took master thrower, 2 more levels or rogue or fighter, and SS at 10 my IL would be 6/7? I'm trying to figure out the earliest level I could take SS 2 and get 5th level maneuvers following this build progression. Or I could take master thrower at 7-9(counts as a full 3 if I understand correctly), take SS at 10 AND 11, and by 11 I could pick up a 5th stance? A bit confusing.

2. Cloak of deception. Here is the desc:

CLOAK OF DECEPTION
Shadow Hand (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
The shadows around you seem to surge forward
and engulf you. For a brief moment,
they render you invisible.
When you initiate this maneuver, you
turn invisible, as the greater invisibility
spell (PH 245). You remain invisible
until the end of your current turn.
This maneuver is a supernatural
ability.

Does this mean I can do this maneuver at the start of my round as a swift action, then do my full attack while invisible? If so it seems I can get one full round SA during each encounter. Assuming I got surprise round, then won initiative on normal round and then in 2nd round I do this, I could get 3 SA in a row.

3. Shadow stride is a move action, and if I read correctly it basically means I can teleport 50 feet then still have a standard attack. Meaning if I get initiative and act before my target, I can TP near him and get a SA in? This is the main reason I want to get a 5th level maneuver. Also, if I'm in melee range and shadow stride backwards away, do I take an AoO? Since it's considered a teleport and I don't actually cast a spell, it seems it would not. As a thrower this could be awesome. If enemies close in on me, I could TP 40-50 feet away and get a full round throw attack and unless they're fast they couldn't close in on me in one round.

4. Last one. Can I use any martial discipline maneuver with any stance? For instance if I'm using assassin stance, can I still use a desert wind maneuver or do I have to switch to a desert wind stance to do that? I can't seem to find clarity in the book.

 

[Empirate]

1. You add your Swordsage level to half the levels in all other classes you have combined (rounded down) to calculate your initiator level. Prestige Classes do not count as any different from normal non-initiator classes - except if you take up one of the PrCs in Tome of Battle which continue maneuver progression.
Thus, if you go Rogue 1-3/Fighter 1-2/Swordsage 1, your initiator level is 3, allowing you to choose from first and second level maneuvers for the Swordsage level you take at sixth character level.
If you go Rogue 1-3/Fighter 1-2/Swordsage 1/Master Thrower 1/Rogue 4-5/Swordsage 2, your initiator level is 6, and you can pick from first through third level maneuvers (which includes stances) for the Swordsage level you acquire at 10th character level.

2. Cloak of Deception is activated as a swift action (presumably at the start of your turn), and allows you to take a full attack while invisible (or one move and one attack action, or anything else you can do in 1 round's worth of actions). It does not keep you invisible any longer once your turn is finished, though.

3. Your interpretation of Shadow Stride seems correct. However, you don't get 5th level maneuvers with the build you outlined here until you take Swordsage levels for your 11th, 12th, and 13th character level. By 13th level, you'd be a Rogue 5/Fighter 2/Swordsage 5/Master Thrower 1, putting your initiator level at 9 and allowing you to choose 5th level maneuvers.

4. The stances you assume and the strikes, boosts, and counters you use are independent of each other. Meaning, yes, you can use any combination of stances and other maneuvers you like. Note that some maneuvers only work with the discipline's preferred weapons, IIRC.

 

[vageta31]

Thanks for the perfect explanation. I thought I had read the PrCs counted as full levels, but didn't realize it meant PrCs only from ToB. The reason I'd want the 5th level maneuvers was for Shadow Stride, though I guess I could still benefit from Shadow Jaunt but I just won't be able to attack with it. Nice escape maneuver though.

Cloak of deception works how I gathered then. Assuming they don't have truesight or see invisible, it's basically a free full SA round every encounter. Shadow stride would have probably given me another one for at least a standard attack as I could have TP'd into flanking position from 50ft away in an instant. Though now that I understand initiator levels I'm not sure I want to take that much swordsage. Maybe I could finish up after I finish master thrower. I'm not going for pure power optimization, just trying to be the most efficient since thrower classes are feat heavy and since I'm the party rogue I do need some levels in those skills.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can also re-ready or refresh maneuvers, so potentially more than once/encounter. As I mentioned in the other thread, SS has the worst maneuver refresh mechanic of the 3 adept classes: foll round action for 1 maneuver back. But the Adaptive Style feat lets you re-ready your maneuvers in just one full round action, which means you get them ALL back, so anyone going far in Swordsage would consider it a required feat. Since you're only getting like a half dozen maneuvers it may not be worth it for you, though.

Also look at Distracting Ember, level 1 Desert Wind. Gives you a flanking buddy for 1 round as a swift action, so there's another full attack SA you can gain.

Regarding Shadow Stride...I don't get it. You're a throwing build. Yeah, sneak attack is 30 ft only, but if you can take a move action to teleport 50 ft into melee, you could also just walk up 30 ft with that move action and attack from range. If you were 65-80 ft away exactly, I guess Shadow Stride would make a difference, but that's a pretty specific distance range (and once you get boots of striding and springing for speed 40, that band where Shadow Stride makes a difference becomes very tiny).

And yes, your stance has no bearing on what maneuvers you can use. Other than Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances only functioning while you're on the ground (so any maneuver that involved jumping or flying would probably end a stone dragon stance and any stance that had you hovering off the ground, like some Desert Wind and Shadow Hand ones, would make stone dragon maneuvers unavailable), you can do whatever you like.

 

[vageta31]

I guess I'm thinking that at some point I'll always have to go to melee range. I was thinking of my guy being 50% throwing/50% melee, but to be a good throw build takes a lot of feats so by feat choice alone it seems I'm mostly thrower. What would you think about a build that focuses halfway on throwing, but also keeps up good melee strengths? Instead of trying to get the absolute most out of throwing, instead get just enough to be useful but save some feats for better melee?

After reading a lot about swordsage I'm beginning to like the class even more. It does all that I wanted to be able to do with an Arcane Stunt swashbuckler, with the added bonus of focus dagger/short sword and the dex to str replaces the insightful strike. I'm wondering if I could get the bare minimum to a throwing build to be useful and make it more of an assist to melee than meant to replace it... I could take more SS at higher levels and get some use out of the higher level maneuvers.

If I got precise shot, PBS(already have) and then the free weapon focus from swordsage then that's all I really have to have. If I took even one master thrower I can pick up the trip trick and already have a useful thrower build, not to mention a free quick draw which benefits melee as well. I don't have to take far shot and rapid shot. I could get the far shot gloves and not worry about the extra rapid shot attack. By that level I'd already have 3 attacks with my TWF. Then I'd have more feats to pick up adaptive style and such. Trying to squeeze all that in with a full thrower build is pushing it. I could always take MT to lvl 3 later and pick up a 2nd trick like palm throw.

I really just want a lot of utility out of my guy then focusing everything on one thing like throwing OR melee. Throwing is extremely expensive feat/class wise. I may not be as strong at one thing, but the utility and extra mobility should make up for it. Swordsage seems like they could have a really cool way of using tactics in a fight which is why I was asking the question of shadow stride. Combined with shadow stride, child of shadow opens up some cool opportunities. If you got surprise round you could theoretically be in child of shadow stance, stride to an opponent and get a free SA in and because you moved more than 10ft you are concealed for next round. Then after creature makes it's attack(hopefully missing due to concealment) you can switch to assassin stance as a swift action, get a full attack. Then cloak of deception next round for full attack SA with the assassin stance bonus.

Just seems if you use some ingenuity you could come up with some really cool tactics for any situation. With a 40ft movement and shadow stride/shadow jaunt you could really move around the battlefield and use some range attacks to your advantage.

Regarding Shadow Stride...I don't get it. You're a throwing build. Yeah, sneak attack is 30 ft only, but if you can take a move action to teleport 50 ft into melee, you could also just walk up 30 ft with that move action and attack from range. If you were 65-80 ft away exactly, I guess Shadow Stride would make a difference, but that's a pretty specific distance range (and once you get boots of striding and springing for speed 40, that band where Shadow Stride makes a difference becomes very tiny).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, as many people do upon throughly reading a ToB class, you could just decide the adept class does it better, scrap your plans, and just go ot 20 in that.

I like throwing builds, and you can certainly lessen the investment in ranged and still do ok at it, it's just a matter of how focused you want to be. As a rogue type, I strongly recommend you avoid extended stays in melee like the plague without Staggering Strike, you really can't go toe to toe with monsters, even if you're getting SA every round with TWF, you'll still lose.

I don't think you need Far Shot. Like I said, you're mostly sticking to 30 ft and closer anyway, and yes, the gloves are dirt cheap. Tack them on to something else for extra if you need to, even. You could also pass on rapid shot if you must, though that is very useful. You don't need many more melee/adept feats, though. Just Staggering and Adaptive Style, really. And the TWF line, which benefits melee and ranged. Maybe Backstab.

Shadow Stride: Also noteworthy is that MIC has a ton of 3, 2, and 1 per day items to move, teleport, or (take an additional) 5 ft step as a swift or immediate action. Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker and Boots of Sidestepping, off the top of my head. For move action teleporting, anklets of translocation and quicksilver boots iirc, maybe others. Shadow stride is not your only option for this. Heck, level 1 Sudden Leap maneuver from Tiger Claw gives you a swift action jump to cover some distance. The only thing is you need a decent jump bonus to utilize it and without a 20 ft "running" start, jump distances get halved.

Regarding opportunities to use Child of Shadow, if you do want to go away from the throwing focus, look at the Shadow Blade tactical feat, too. I like throwers, myself.

 

[vageta31]

Good point on not being able to stand toe to toe with my build, which is why I like the idea of teleporting and some throwing. Would also like to get boots that let me move 40ft to help get way out of range without the enemy being able to close in just one move(assuming they move less than me). I can strike from the outside, then move in(or get free AoO's if they move close in their first round). Then I could attack and TP back out of range for another throwing round.

Pure swordsage actually sounds pretty fun, but I'm already going to be the dedicated skill monkey so I have to take some Rogue levels in between no matter what. Taking them sprinkled later should help me out with skill points as well. SS gets move silently, hide and tumble so I could easily keep those up, then at Rogue levels I max my skill monkey ones again.

I assume by tactical feat you mean Gloom Razor? Sounds pretty cool and the requirements are already there. I definitely like the idea, I had already been considering it. I could simply take fighter 2, MT 1 then sprinkle rogue and SS levels throughout. Could always add 2 more levels of MT at some point for the extra trick. I'd also considering taking some skill tricks from CS that might work well with my SS maneuvers.

 

[The Cremator]

If you're looking for a throwing build, you might want to consider Warblade and some maneuvers out of the Iron Heart discipline to qualify you for the Bloodstorm Blade prestige on page 100, depending on whether it would still match the flavour you're aiming for with your character. Bloodstorm Blade is a really fun class to play, especially if you put your maneuvers together correctly, eventually giving you a full attack at range, or a mix of melee and thrown as a full attack.

 

[vageta31]

I checked into Bloodstorm blade but it didn't quite fit the type of thrower I was interested in. I'm based on a high dex build so master thrower/shadowsage just seemed to fit better. It does look like a fun build though, but more focused on a str built fighter type.

 

[The Cremator]

I checked into Bloodstorm blade but it didn't quite fit the type of thrower I was interested in. I'm based on a high dex build so master thrower/shadowsage just seemed to fit better. It does look like a fun build though, but more focused on a str built fighter type.

Yeah, I suspected that might be the case. Another thing I intended to mention was that you have to watch your prestige classes too, if you're looking for one that offers full initiator level. The prestige class has to state in its text (I believe it's under the maneuvers/stances known section) that it grants full initiator level, even if it's from the ToB. Otherwise it only grants 1/2 progression as any other source of HD would.