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4e A different type of disconnect??

Filcher

First Post
As for the disconnect that the OP talks about. If you don't want to be offended, don't read.
seems to be the politically correct version of D&D, the kind that the demonless 2e could never be. My disconnect comes from my perception that everyone has to be equal at all times. Everyone has roles but in my experience no one really shines. I sure hope this doesn't get this thread locked.

*laugh* Maybe that's the solution. We all put disclaimers and spolier tags at the heads of all our posts.

While I am a 4E early adopter, I have to agree with the assessment about the "all equal/none-shine," assessment. 4E, I believe, is designed with the express intent that "everyone shines when we all work together."

In the wrong hands this can turn out like a terrible new age classroom where we all get gold stars for showing up.

But in the right hands, the team does shine, sorta like the last 5 minutes of every Thundercats episode.

For my game, sometimes the best shine comes down to roleplaying. Last game a character was infected by a necrotic curse that healed her all the while rotting out her limbs and whispering evil thoughts in her ears. The player *loved* it, and the spotlight was on her a lot of the game, even though it had nothing to do with combat or traditional 4E shine. That sort of shine can take place in any game, any edition.
 
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Jasperak

Adventurer
snip

For my game, sometimes the best shine comes down to roleplaying. Last game a character was infected by a necrotic curse that healed her all the while rotting out her limbs and whispering evil thoughts in her ears. The player *loved* it, and the spotlight was on her a lot of the game, even though it had nothing to do with combat or traditional 4E shine. That sort of shine can take place in any game, any edition.

/snip

And that is my love/hate feelings towards $e. Because it puts so much emphasis on combat and just a hint towards out-of-combat stuff, I have found in my limited experience that that type of shine will get downplayed more by gamers overall.

I miss the story of D&D and I see less of it now. Truth be told there was not much more in 3e.
But at least there your character's abilities weren't limited to combat choices. Skills and skill challenges don't count to me.
I like a lot of what 4e has done; don't get me wrong. It's more balanced mechanics and help to low level characters just doesn't resonate as much with me. As a quick example, I don't see it possible to make an extended adventure out of B4-The Lost City with 4e. Someone has with 1e or OD&D.

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing 4e, it's just that like the OP, it doesn't connect with me as strongly as earlier editions. Nothing wrong with that. Play what makes you happy. I will play 4e in the future, but it doesn't mean I am going to gloss over its warts.
 

Azzemmell

First Post
D&D should be a game of "yes". Or more specifically, "yes, and...", or "yes, but...". And 3.5E, for all its faults, is way better suited to that than 4E's At-Will/ Encounter/ Daily system.

I agree completely. I examined the 4e books with a good degree of attention... and quickly started flipping pages past all the lists of abilities. Yeesh. More of what turns me off about 3e, just a different side to the same coin.

I started playing D&D in 1e and started DM'ing in 2e (and have rarely played since; I'm a DM). After running many games of 3e (and I made the switch to it completely), and very much enjoying it's improvements over 2e, I began to see it's faults. Specifically, and this is primarily due to how I like to run games (after all, if the DM doesn't enjoy it then how long before the players just get bored?), the way that the plethora of rules bogged down the game.

I remember running 2e games where things could happen so fast and both me and the players were flying by the seat of our pants. Somehow all the options of 3e created limits. Running 3e games became a chore for me; combats lasted longer, players spent more time looking up rules - I don't need to go over this, its been pounded to death by players and DM's like me who at first saw the wealth of 3e material from sweet new companies and said "Cool!!" And then lots of options became too many things to keep track of. 4e immediately struck me as the same thing in different clothes.

Long live bare-bones rules and DM's saying, "You want to do what?... wow, that's ballsie. Ok, but you'll be at a -3 because you're still on fire."
 

Filcher

First Post
Well, for what it is worth I *hate* the adventures that Wizards has released so far. I think they do a terrible job of conveying the strengths of the game.

I'm holding out another week to see what 4E material I can pick up at GenCon. Because at this point, either I make it up myself, or convert AD&D modules into 4E Adventures. (Tomb of the Lizard King, anyone?) For whatever reason the new adventures just *suck*, in my pro-4E opinion.
 

What I hate about this no edition war BS is that it assumes that we cannot have logical discourse about different gaming systems or different gaming styles. Your response (highlighted for effect) sums up why I feel open and mature discussion only benefits the community. Because I like your rational. It works for you and your group. That's all that really matters. I may use it if the time should come.

The next question is why does the PC only get to use it once a day?

Well, the "edition wars" tend to not lead to open and mature discussions but mud-slinging, concealed insults and "my playstyle is better then yours".

There is still room for discussion of game mechanics - but anytime you try to add "value judgement" or ascribing motives or character traits to them, you run into trouble. (That's why "video-gamey", "dumbing down" are all bad ways to describe any change.) And this happens way too often.

Saying that 4E powers can be best described as a meta-game mechanic giving the player narrative control over the game world does not contain any value judgement. That you prefer this because you enjoy having or granting this kind of control is the kind of subjective judgement that's fine.Saying that you don't like it because it brings you "out-of-character", thinking about metagame concepts also seems fine. But after that, there is area where people like to generalize and might talk about stuff like "only power-gamers want to take away the DMs power or only control freaks don't like narrative game mechanics" where you run into trouble.

---

I miss the story of D&D and I see less of it now. Truth be told there was not much more in 3e. But at least there your character's abilities weren't limited to combat choices. Skills and skill challenges don't count to me.
Hiding your opinion in spoiler blocks won't help. People can still read it. As an extreme example: I can't put insults into spoiler blocks and hope to go unnoticed (or later tell the moderations that I put in spoiler blocks - only people that wanted to be insulted would be able to read it). ;)

And your "spoiler" part is exactly one of the things that incite controversy, because any 4E fan just can see it as a falsehood.
Every character can learn skills, and most of them have non-combat applications. And spellcasters (or anyone with the Ritual Caster feat) can also learn rituals that are not related to combat stuff. And that are just the "character building" choices. If I look at the class advancement tables in 3E, I don't see more non-combat abilities then in 4E. Wizards in 3E might use their class advancement to learn non-combat utility spells, but Wizards in 4E can use role-playing to learn new rituals - also non-combat utility spells.

And outside of plain character build mechanics - Quests can serve to motivate stuff outside of "kill monsters and take their stuff". One of a player characters quest might become finding a woman for life - or just seducing the princess of the local kingdom. Another might be finding your long-lost brother. Another might be ending a quarrel between two Dwarven clans. And another might be disbanding an Elven Court, so that your hogbolin allies can use the confusion to conquer their Feywild home.
For some of these quests you might skill challenges, others might be way more complex, consisting of multiple challenges and combats - and others might be resolved without using any dice roll at all...

Sometimes I think people are looking in the wrong places for finding the "role-playing" parts of the game. But maybe people just have a very different idea on what promotes role-playing and what doesn't that I just can't hope to find any common ground. I don't know.
 

Merlin the Tuna

First Post
I am NOT trying to start an edition war here--but I have a completely different take on the 2 systems:

I would actually describe 3.5 as "rules for almost everything, and if there's no rule, then decide on a modifier and roll a d20", and 4E as "here are some cinematic abilities for you and some rules, but don't forget that sometimes you won't be able to use your abilities for no reason except we said so."
I tend to think that 4E is more flexible in this regard thanks to the broader skill system. It makes it a little more natural to say "Okay, make an Acrobatics check to do something nuts," rather than "Okay, I'll need to nail a Jump check to make it there, a Balance check to not fall, and a Tumble check to stick the landing." I find 3.5 skills to be way too narrow to get much improv out of them.
 

ProfessorCirno

Banned
Banned
I tend to think that 4E is more flexible in this regard thanks to the broader skill system. It makes it a little more natural to say "Okay, make an Acrobatics check to do something nuts," rather than "Okay, I'll need to nail a Jump check to make it there, a Balance check to not fall, and a Tumble check to stick the landing." I find 3.5 skills to be way too narrow to get much improv out of them.

While I personally never heard that used in 3.5, isn't that exactly how skill challenges in 4e work?


As for the "once a day" and the methods of explaining it, I'm of the camp where I dislike the players being made to describe how their ability works. I love players being able to spice up or revamp their ability descriptions, but I think there should always be a fall-by or safety net for when they don't really want to try and figure out why they could only do it once.
 

Steely Dan

Banned
Banned
seems to be the politically correct version of D&D, the kind that the demonless 2e could never be. My disconnect comes from my perception that everyone has to be equal at all times. Everyone has roles but in my experience no one really shines. I sure hope this doesn't get this thread locked.

Your use of the cute $ symbol would be more appropriate for when 5th Ed hits the streets, you know, the shape and all.
 



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