D&D 4E 4e and save or dies.

[WarlockLord]

I noticed an interesting thing flipping through my Monster Manual this morning.

When WoTC announced their decision to get rid of all save or dies, because they killed players, I was not happy. As I recall, there were numerous threads at the time where the SoD haters said "we hate this when monsters kill our characters."

Well, guess what. The Beholder and the Elder Gibbering Orb, it appears, have slow save or dies (2 rounds of failed saves).

None of the PC classes, to my knowledge, has this.

Can anyone explain why the monsters are armed with these, but not the PCs?

 

[Ten]

I noticed an interesting thing flipping through my Monster Manual this morning.

When WoTC announced their decision to get rid of all save or dies, because they killed players, I was not happy. As I recall, there were numerous threads at the time where the SoD haters said "we hate this when monsters kill our characters."

Well, guess what. The Beholder and the Elder Gibbering Orb, it appears, have slow save or dies (2 rounds of failed saves).

None of the PC classes, to my knowledge, has this.

Can anyone explain why the monsters are armed with these, but not the PCs?

The monsters are different from the PCs.

 

[WarlockLord]

Well...yes, I noticed that. The monsters seem to get all the cool abilities now (psionics, deathlock wight's reanimate, etc.) But one of the reasons given for taking these spells away from the PCs was to get them out of the hands of monsters who would kill your PCs with them.

But they didn't. We still have SoD monsters, but boom-wizards with "immobilize" instead of paralysis.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

Monsters are allowed to be badass as well.

2 monsters have it...

So are you one of those people who goes to a movie and don't like it because of who they cast as extras? Just seems very nitpicky...

What's a big issue for you with 4E? Love it? Hate it? Not sure?

 

[WarlockLord]

I just hate that we don't get them.

I hate how we don't have as many options anymore. Prior editions, you could use the arcane spellcaster to create a necromancer, conjurer, spy, etc. Now you have "boom mage" and "snipe mage". Woo-hoo! Go you!

Not enough powers. Looking through the monster manual is like seeing the cool and interesting powers we used to have in 3e, given to the monsters while you hit the bad guys with a web spell and realize they can still shoot because they would feel bad about themselves because they didn't get actions. It pisses me off to read sidebars about rituals to call demons and raise undead but be unable because of the great god of Absolute Game Balance.

I still haven't played 4e yet. I play Saturday, and I fear I nerfed my character by trying to get to 2 classes (primarily wizard and warlock training) with a drow. Unfortuatly, dark, intelligent wizard with staff doesn't seem to be covered.

 

[pinbot]

Hmm...you want all the powers in the MM and your character is a drow...it sounds like you're just on the wrong side of the screen

 

[Lurker59]

Save or dies would also allow the PCs to take out elites/solos with far too little effort. Even if the monster needed to fail two or three saves before the power takes effect it would still be far too powerful. Allowing PCs abilities to completely bypass HP would greatly weaken brutes, along with elites and solos, even with their bonuses to saving throws. Especially considering an well-built orb wizards can inflict major saving throw penalties as an encounter power.

 

[baberg]

4E is not 3.5. 4E is not the successor to 3.5 (that would be Pathfinder). 4E is a new game. Let's say that again: 4E is a new game. Forget what you could do in 3.5 and accept that 4E is a new game with different definitions and different archetypes.

When you start approaching the game from that perspective, you'll be a lot happier.

 

[Falling Icicle]

4E is not 3.5. 4E is not the successor to 3.5 (that would be Pathfinder). 4E is a new game. Let's say that again: 4E is a new game. Forget what you could do in 3.5 and accept that 4E is a new game with different definitions and different archetypes.

When you start approaching the game from that perspective, you'll be a lot happier.

This has nothing to do with 3.5. The OP was asking why, IN THIS EDITION, monsters get save or dies and PCs don't.

Save or dies would also allow the PCs to take out elites/solos with far too little effort. Even if the monster needed to fail two or three saves before the power takes effect it would still be far too powerful. Allowing PCs abilities to completely bypass HP would greatly weaken brutes, along with elites and solos, even with their bonuses to saving throws. Especially considering an well-built orb wizards can inflict major saving throw penalties as an encounter power.

I don't know about that. Solo monsters get a +5 to their saves, so it is extremely unlikely that they will die to such a spell. You could even have a special exception for solo creatures written into such spells' rules, granting them immunity or perhaps they just lose HP equal to their Healing Surge value, rather than dying.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

never mind