D&D 4E 4e and save or dies.

[Zurai]

EDIT: Nevermind. Not constructive.

 

[VannATLC]

Zurai, if you cannot see the difference between an attack that instantly kills somebody, and one that drops them to the dying condition, then the pendantry is obviously required.

In anycase, there is a defined difference between this mechanic, and the 3.5 issues.

I would agree that there should be the opportunity for PC's to pull off similiar levels of attacks. I might allow the chaining of several spells together, that allows for a new condition based on interactions of several other conditions.

IE, Has cold vulnerability, is undergoing 'ongoing' frost damage, then spell triggers a 'deathfrost' condition, that if not saved at end of targets next turn, leaves them an icicle.

 

[hong]

The sticking point about instakill attacks in 1/2/3E is that they reduce the outcome to a single die roll. Once the attacker makes their attack, that's it as far as influencing the outcome goes. If you succeed, you live; if you fail, you die. You can't try to mitigate the effect, run away, or use tactics.

4E changes that so that even if the attacker succeeds, you're not completely out of the fight. You (or at least your party members) can still do something to save you, by dragging you away, using the Heal skill, casting a spell, or whatever. Some "instakills" also work only after failing successive saves against debilitating conditions, so the odds of dying are further reduced and there are even more decision points for the players.

 

[Surgoshan]

Orcus has save or die. Orcus is in 4E. Thus, 4E does have save or die.

By the time you face Orcus, you have abilities that turn death from a problem to an inconvenience.

 

[hong]

Hmm... do "once per day, when you die" abilities work when you're only mostly dead (0 hp)?

 

[Zurai]

Arcane Spirit doesn't. Divine Recovery does (it actually won't work if you're killed straight-up, such as by mummy rot, chaos phage, etc). Eternal Seeker doesn't have a self-rez, and the Trickster one requires a minor action so you have to be >0 hp.

 

[jackston2]

If players get save or dies... then that means monsters need to get spell resistance.

If players get Force cage... then the monsters need disentegrate or teleport.

If the players can fly... then so must the monsters.

If the players can do X... monsters need immunity X, anti-X, pre-emptive Y, Blindsight, etc.

Which is why high level monsters sucked the big one: seriously, SR 29, Flight, Greater teleport at-will, True Sight, Resist Fire, Cold 20, Immune acid, electric, petrifaction.

 

[Surgoshan]

Well, Orcus is meant to be a serious challenge for 30th level characters.

 

[Zurai]

Well, Orcus is meant to be a serious challenge for 30th level characters.

Oh, I agree. I have no real stance on this issue at all, other than that 4E does have save-or-die. I don't really care whether monsters or players have access to them.

 

[N0Man]

Honestly, "save or die" type spells are more powerful in the hands of players than they are for monsters.

Monsters don't take up additional Feats or Orb Mastery to allow them to reduce the chance of a successful save significantly.