D&D 4E 4e and Star Wars Saga ed...

Starbuck_II

First Post
Probably the single most significant difference for me is that in Star Wars when my character attacks, he's usually just attacking. "I fire my blaster." "I swing my lightsaber." In D&D when my character attacks, he's nearly always using some sort of power. "I cleave." "I use sure sure strike." Since I find powers to be complicated, by extension that makes attacking complicated. As often as attacks happen in roleplaying games, I don't want attacking to be complicated.

So yeah, I wish 4th Edition had turned out more like Saga. Though I'm not sure it would have been possible to keep Saga's streamlined simplicity while allowing for the high-magic settings of D&D.
When my Ewok Jedi attacks it is either: Geneade (for area attack), a Round house Kick (Combat gloves for my feet), 2 handed Lightsaber withBattle Strike (If have DR or saving Force powers or big guys), Force Stun thingy to lower condition, or my Sling.

So I find I don't just attack. I usually attack the most efficient.

I agree, there are parts of 4th that would be great if Saga was imported (Being able to gain powers 1/enounter by a feat would be cool). But than there are balance issues. Saga uses Dark Side but that only works on non-evil. I mean, Force Lightning is better than any other attack power but is Dark.
 

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TheSleepyKing

First Post
It was funny, when I saw the winners of the ENnies, I was reminded what a fantastic system SWSE is. In my view, it's pretty much 3e perfected. They resolved pretty much all the criticisms of 3e without abandoning the elegance and flexibility of the system. I (and I'm sure many others) would have been ecstatic if 4e was a fantasy version of SWSE, and I suspect it would have been far less divisive if it was.

Pathfinder, of course, is also trying to be "3e perfected", but the requirement for backwards compatibility (which Paizo doesn't want to abandon because of its existing catalogue of products) probably won't let that happen.
 

I think the real systematic flaw is that Saga allows the use of skills vs defenses for major abilities. Otherwise, I think it's pretty solid.

When comparing between Saga and 4E, I think Saga seems a little... simpler.
That can be appeal for some (as others have pointed out - you do stuff like throwing grenades, firing your blaster, and you don't have any special effects involved. For those that want something more complex, they play a Jedi. The powers of course are more complex and interesting.

4E has the same complexity for everyone, and it is a little higher then the Saga standard for non-Jedi. That can be a problem, since sometimes you don't want to dwell on the "rulesy" stuff, and focus more on the rest of the game.

What I find pretty interesting (and it was pointed out for me especially in Mike Mearls recent podcast) is how the defined roles in 4E change the (combat) gameplay.

In Saga (and also 3E) everyone plays the same game of hitting your foe hard. The Noble is possibly the exception, since he is more about aiding his allies to hit hard (similar to the 3E Bard). Basically, you have a lot of Strikers and one Leader. Jedis might have a secondary role as Controller, but not that much.
In 4E, you clearly play your roles - the Striker is the one that still plays 3E and deals damage. But the Defender is really the one to take all the damage, a game nobody really could or wanted to play in 3E, and the Leader is all about helping the Defender to take that damage and helping the rest to hit. (In that, he's like a Bard with better buffing spells - or a Cleric ;) ). The Controller doesn't really care about how much damage he does directly, but mostly about how he can restrict the enemy - either they can't escape, or they aren't in a situation where they can't attack effectively.

But I think that Saga makes a pretty good job at mimicking the Star Wars action. There are no real roles in Star Wars - everyone of the characters holds his blaster or light saber when it comes down to it. There is no one that would be able to "take the heat" - they are all shot at, and nobody tries to expose himself as a target. There are Duels between antagonists and protagonists, but they are 1:1, meaning no Striker vs Defender distinctions, and the 2:1 encounters (like Obi Wan and his master against our "Tiefling Sith" ;) ) don't make a distinction between someone striking or defending.
Of course - Star Wars characters don't include a real soldier. (The closest is Boba Fett, but he doesn't work in a team - and Janos fate might tell us about trying to "defend" against a Jedi ;) )

So, whatever I'd do with Star Wars, I would probably not try to import the roles directly, but I would probably introduce a more generalized power system, and use the 4E system and powers as an idea-giver, but probably trying to avoid much of the board-game focus and remove dailies and some rider-effects. I think Star Wars doesn't gain much with daily mechanics (maybe aside from hit points or healing surges), and to throw a bone through the simulationists. ;) The board-game focus is probably a hindrance for newbies (especially if we consider that there aren't that many Starwars Minis, or are there?), and the rider-effects can be replaced with minor action powers. (That probably become stronger without the n[W] power component)
 


Imaro

Legend
While they have similiarities I will agree that they are different games. I don't really think they should really be compared. I mostly DM so I prefer 4e as it's faster to prep for than SWS. However I think they're both great games.

I guess for me it's hard not to compare, since I and my group really like SW Saga... yet 4e wasn't received well by my group at all. As far as prep time, for me at least SW strikes a nice balance between the extensive 3.5 rules and the almost bare bones rules of 4e.

I strongly prefer Saga to 4E. A large part of that is rules, but there's no denying that the setting itself is significant as well. I grew up on Star Wars. I knew all about wookies, Jedi, droids, and Death Stars long before I'd ever heard of dwarves, elves, dragons, or dungeons.

Yeah, I was a Star Wars kid my self so I completely understand... though for me I also like the rules system by itself.

From a rules perspective, I see two main areas of divergence between Saga and 4th Edition D&D: classes and species. The difference in the class rules is the more significant of the two in my opinion. Not just mechanically but in design philosophy. Star Wars has a handfull of very broad base classes. Players are actively encouraged to multiclass in whatever combination they need in order to achieve the mixture of abilities they envision for their character. D&D by contrast has more classes, but their roles are more strictly defined. While multiclassing is possible in D&D, it's not as plug-and-play as it is in Star Wars. It also feels to me like the system actively discourages multiclassing in D&D.

This is one of my problems with 4e as opposed to SWSE. In SWSE, I feel you are encouraged to create the type of character you want...while in 4e you are encouraged to pick a role your group needs. The first as a design goal, just vibes with my preferences more.

I think in D&D 4e you are not only actively discouraged from multiclassing... but hindered by the class spread offered in the corebook, as many classes (except maybe the Paladin and Warlock) don't sync up well... I get the feeling multi-classing is based around the assumption that one should have to buy more books to get usage out of the rules... but that's a whole other argument.

Mechanically, I much prefer the talent trees of Star Wars to the powers of D&D. The main reason being that I find talent tress easier to use. I feel like I'm getting information overload when I look at powers in D&D. Talent trees don't give me that same feeling.

I prefer the talent trees because they allow for better and more open customization than the powers in D&D (I really wish they had chosen this route for 4e). Powers are specific and have a hefty cost attached to dabbling, and this doesn't fit my, or my groups preferences at all.

Probably the single most significant difference for me is that in Star Wars when my character attacks, he's usually just attacking. "I fire my blaster." "I swing my lightsaber." In D&D when my character attacks, he's nearly always using some sort of power. "I cleave." "I use sure sure strike." Since I find powers to be complicated, by extension that makes attacking complicated. As often as attacks happen in roleplaying games, I don't want attacking to be complicated.

I think that 4e messed up in starting with a higher learning curve than 3.5 for everybody. Understanding not only what you're powers do but also how to use them effectively is a burden even at level one. I think the power system for everything leads to the tracking of much more minutiae than in SWSE on a round per round basis (especially for the GM).

Another reason I find myself dissatisfied with powers...is that unlike force abilities, they aren't defined in any discernible way. Powers like Tumble intrude upon the realm of skills, yet are class specific. So no matter how skilled a Ranger is in acrobatics (Skill Training, Skill Focus, etc.) he wil never be able to use this skill to dodge between and around opponents.

So yeah, I wish 4th Edition had turned out more like Saga. Though I'm not sure it would have been possible to keep Saga's streamlined simplicity while allowing for the high-magic settings of D&D.

I agree with the first part of this statement...the second part I'm not so sure of, and I'll hold off judgement until more supplements come out for SWSE and we see how they handle more powerful force abilities like those found in "The Force Unleashed" campaign guide.
 

Imaro

Legend
I think the real systematic flaw is that Saga allows the use of skills vs defenses for major abilities. Otherwise, I think it's pretty solid.

Yes, I agree here as I remember from the last time we played, a human jedi can get ridiculously high Use the Force skil at level one.

When comparing between Saga and 4E, I think Saga seems a little... simpler.
That can be appeal for some (as others have pointed out - you do stuff like throwing grenades, firing your blaster, and you don't have any special effects involved. For those that want something more complex, they play a Jedi. The powers of course are more complex and interesting.

4E has the same complexity for everyone, and it is a little higher then the Saga standard for non-Jedi. That can be a problem, since sometimes you don't want to dwell on the "rulesy" stuff, and focus more on the rest of the game.

Eh, I think 4e is more than just "a little higher then the Saga standard for non-Jedi." I would argue it's as high or higher than Jedi in SWSE. Personally I think SWSE has less to keep track of during combat than 4e (insofar as minor bonuses, immediate actions & reactions, etc.) I also think SWSE allows for more customization, even insofar as a particular characters combat abilities are concerned.

What I find pretty interesting (and it was pointed out for me especially in Mike Mearls recent podcast) is how the defined roles in 4E change the (combat) gameplay.

In Saga (and also 3E) everyone plays the same game of hitting your foe hard. The Noble is possibly the exception, since he is more about aiding his allies to hit hard (similar to the 3E Bard). Basically, you have a lot of Strikers and one Leader. Jedis might have a secondary role as Controller, but not that much.
In 4E, you clearly play your roles - the Striker is the one that still plays 3E and deals damage. But the Defender is really the one to take all the damage, a game nobody really could or wanted to play in 3E, and the Leader is all about helping the Defender to take that damage and helping the rest to hit. (In that, he's like a Bard with better buffing spells - or a Cleric ;) ). The Controller doesn't really care about how much damage he does directly, but mostly about how he can restrict the enemy - either they can't escape, or they aren't in a situation where they can't attack effectively.

But I think that Saga makes a pretty good job at mimicking the Star Wars action. There are no real roles in Star Wars - everyone of the characters holds his blaster or light saber when it comes down to it. There is no one that would be able to "take the heat" - they are all shot at, and nobody tries to expose himself as a target. There are Duels between antagonists and protagonists, but they are 1:1, meaning no Striker vs Defender distinctions, and the 2:1 encounters (like Obi Wan and his master against our "Tiefling Sith" ;) ) don't make a distinction between someone striking or defending.
Of course - Star Wars characters don't include a real soldier. (The closest is Boba Fett, but he doesn't work in a team - and Janos fate might tell us about trying to "defend" against a Jedi ;) )

I'm going to disagree here. In SWSE you can make a soldier character who is very good at taking hits and damage (a defender) by specializing in the Armor Specialist Talent Tree and supplementing it with feats like Toughness, Improved Damage Threshold, Shake it Off and Combat Reflexes. Also Jedi who specialize in blocking, deflection, etc. can serve as defenders.

I think the difference here is that in 4e you are 95% tied to the class which gives you one role for combat... while in SWSE, you can invest however much you want into a particular combat role, but the classes themselves are broad archetypes that you specialize with your choices.
 

Yes, I agree here as I remember from the last time we played, a human jedi can get ridiculously high Use the Force skil at level one.

Eh, I think 4e is more than just "a little higher then the Saga standard for non-Jedi." I would argue it's as high or higher than Jedi in SWSE. Personally I think SWSE has less to keep track of during combat than 4e (insofar as minor bonuses, immediate actions & reactions, etc.) I also think SWSE allows for more customization, even insofar as a particular characters combat abilities are concerned.
I think, it begins not too complex. Two At-Wills, 1 Encounter, one Daily. That's very manageable. Of course, it is more complex then a 1st level Fighter (3E) or Soldier, but I don't think it's harder then a 1st level Wizard or Cleric.

I'm going to disagree here. In SWSE you can make a soldier character who is very good at taking hits and damage (a defender) by specializing in the Armor Specialist Talent Tree and supplementing it with feats like Toughness, Improved Damage Threshold, Shake it Off and Combat Reflexes. Also Jedi who specialize in blocking, deflection, etc. can serve as defenders.
You can make someone that can take damage, but for a Defender, you also need to be someone that brings the enemy to chose you over anyone else on the battle-field. Without the mark-related abilities of the Fighter and the Paladin, that gets harder. Basically, both classes ensure that if you ignore them, they lay down the hurt on you. But when they focus on you, it becomes easier for them.
In Starwars, the only way you would do this is by _always_ dealing tons of damage. You can wear the heaviest armor you want, no one's gonna attack you if someone else deals the damage to your foe.

The effect on roles are very pronounced in that regard. The Strikers would be the natural target for enemies, if it wasn't for the Fighter always stabbing you in the back or stopping you in your tracks when you try to turn your attention to them.

[/quote]
I think the difference here is that in 4e you are 95% tied to the class which gives you one role for combat... while in SWSE, you can invest however much you want into a particular combat role, but the classes themselves are broad archetypes that you specialize with your choices.[/QUOTE]
It is certainly true that you can choose your role a little more independent from class (I don't think the Noble would be that flexible, barring multiclassing - which of course is exactly the method of choice if you still want to do it.)

There are definitely two very different design paradigm involved in the class creation. Each class gets only one primary role (sometimes,they might have a secondary role, but it's usually well concealed - Warlords are also a little defenderish, Warlocks a little controllerish, and so on), and you can't get out of it, even with multiclassing.
 


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