D&D 4E 4E: BBEG's Redemption?

[Voss]

The Chuul is worth 500 XP and the Clawfighter + Scourge is worth 600 XP. Against 6 1st-level PCs, who are supposed to win against 600 XP worth of monsters, neither of these fights is supposed to warrant the use of daily powers.

This is a new argument by me. If the encounter is level appropriate (ie, XP=600 or whatever), daily powers unbalance them? That doesn't seem right.

The chuul also had some minions, but they didn't really matter.
The interesting thing, was however, that the 1st level party could beat the snot out of a 10th level monster. Even with its ridiculous AC- the paladin and fighter would roll for 20s and take damage, they stomped it.

Its a very different experience from other editions of D&D, where 1st level characters have a tough time with level appropriate encounters if the dice are unkind.

 

[Cmarco]

You to?? True gamer story: My character was a cleric of Wee Jas. He cast anti-magic (I believe it was domain) in the final campaign battle with the main villian. Needless to say the visual of a cleric and a lich rolling around in the dirt was silly (at least it was memorable).

Augh, it was awful. The PCs were all very high level, and ready to fight the main villain, a very powerful wizard. The party wizard wins initiative, drops an antimagic field on the villain, and the other characters surged forward (I tell you, overland flight, displacement, mage armor and everything else the villain had up just *popped* off)... It was pretty brutal: monk, cleric, and fighter all hammering away on the villain, while the party rogue just stabbed him repeatedly... really took the wind out of my sails. I'd anticipated a fight that would really make the players grit their teeth as balors popped into the room, as enervation spells went flying, and all manner of dark magic would erupt in the faces of the PCs... rather, I got a two-round massacre of five player characters beating on a nearly helpless old man. Simply, it felt lame. Really, terribly, horribly lame.

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

Yep. Just as bad as if the BBEG gets hit by a Save or Die spell in the round one, and you flub the roll.

 

[Blair Goatsblood]

I replaced animal companions IMC for the same reasons....every "big" fight involved the huge crocodile eating the villain in 3 rounds.

 

[the Jester]

Yep. Just as bad as if the BBEG gets hit by a Save or Die spell in the round one, and you flub the roll.

In all fairness, many dms will fudge the hell out of that roll. It takes a special kind of balls to let the BBEG die of a failed save against the very first attack.

I'll do it, though; it's one of the reasons that my players believe that I let the dice fall where they may. (Which, almost entirely, I do.)

 

[Lacyon]

This is a new argument by me. If the encounter is level appropriate (ie, XP=600 or whatever), daily powers unbalance them? That doesn't seem right.

If characters are supposed to be taking 600 XP fights more than once per day, it holds that said fights cannot be balanced against the idea of said party nova-ing all of its daily powers each time.

The chuul also had some minions, but they didn't really matter.
The interesting thing, was however, that the 1st level party could beat the snot out of a 10th level monster. Even with its ridiculous AC- the paladin and fighter would roll for 20s and take damage, they stomped it.

Yes. It is to be expected that out-of-level enemies within the same XP range will produce results like this. The Chuul's attack and defense bonuses are supposed to be balanced against a 10th-level party, which means at least +5 over what you need to hit/defend from a 1st-level party. Meanwhile its damage is meant to be such that six of them threaten a 10th-level party, without necessarily killing someone every round.

It's to be expected then, that against 1st-level parties, its 'balance' will be - nearly always hitting for low damage, nearly never being hit but taking a lot of damage when it is, and ultimately being beaten with a near-certainty that no PC will die.

Its a very different experience from other editions of D&D, where 1st level characters have a tough time with level appropriate encounters if the dice are unkind.

Indeed, moderating that unkindness was a design goal.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm really curious, though... does this mean the evil knight in the castle is now an Elite or Solo monster instead of an NPC? I'm really curious. I mean, if master villains are usually Elites or Solos, will there be guidelines for cooking them up from PC classes?

 

[frankthedm]

My Star Wars villain (a Sith Lord no less ) was 6 levels higher than the entire party (he was 19th while they were 13th). In all honesty, they were never really supposed to fight him if they could help it, but i guessed (correctly it seemed) that one of the players would challenge him, so I statted him out just in case. He barely lasted 4 rounds.

Lack of HP to soak the attacks of a party does that.

The problem with BBEG type opponents in 2nd and 3rd edition is pretty simple. They have 4 or more other guys unloading their best attacks on them while most D&D powers are really only good against 1 target.

My players are presently 9th level, and a successful attack from any one of them will do between 15 and 30 damage, whether it is the primary fighter pulling off hits on his primary and secondary attacks, or it is the average result of a successful save against a 9d6 Lightning bolt or a full magic missile volley. That kind of damage from multiple sources adds up fast.
...

Too many monsters are what can be called Glass Cannons. They can put out a staggering amount of damage, but just do not have the staying power they need to have a real impact.

That was a problem on both sides really. Damage bloated fast while HPs increased slow and steady. If someone can deal 30 a round and only has 90 HP, that means a fair fight with equivalent opposition kills him in 3 hits. At high levels front liners were needing Heal each round to live.

Video games make bosses have much more HP than a typical foe for this reason. Tactical games tend to screen the boss with terrain and minions the party HAS to fight through. 3E went the tactical game route, but then gave PCs waaaay to much magical mobility allowing them to bypass what was supposed to challenge them.

A BBEG built to do so could play 'keep away', from most of the party, like the Fly, breath, Fly, breath, fly routine but honestly, being out maneuvered over and over is not what some folks consider a good bossfight.

I replaced animal companions IMC for the same reasons....every "big" fight involved the huge crocodile eating the villain in 3 rounds.

Medium BBEGs just were not worth statting with Druids [and other Grapplers] in the party. They are just going to get chewed.

 

[frankthedm]

I'm really curious, though... does this mean the evil knight in the castle is now an Elite or Solo monster instead of an NPC? I'm really curious. I mean, if master villains are usually Elites or Solos, will there be guidelines for cooking them up from PC classes?

4x to 5x HP and powers that toss PCs around like dominoes or have 1/2 effect even on a miss.

 

[Dedekind]

I had much the same problem in my 3e campaign. Final boss died in 2 rounds (freakin' archmage... )

However, I plan on finishing the Shackled City Adventure Path in the next 2 months and I really like the final BBEG. He is a completely new monster and that means the PCs don't know how to fight him inherently. Plus, he has a cool alternate form that really makes it difficult. I don't really want to give anything away, but I hope that he is a 3e way around this common problem.