D&D 4E 4E: BBEG's Redemption?

[small pumpkin man]

And yet all of these are better than old Starwars, where Sith Lords get one-punched by Wookies. (I really felt for that DM)

 

[Cmarco]

I had much the same problem in my 3e campaign. Final boss died in 2 rounds (freakin' archmage... )

However, I plan on finishing the Shackled City Adventure Path in the next 2 months and I really like the final BBEG. He is a completely new monster and that means the PCs don't know how to fight him inherently. Plus, he has a cool alternate form that really makes it difficult. I don't really want to give anything away, but I hope that he is a 3e way around this common problem.

I loved that finale. Let me know how it turns out for you. Quite satisfying.

 

[Kraydak]

...
And, of course, having tried it out, combats that were 6-12 monsters vs 6 PCs were more fun. Any combat with significantly fewer monsters than PCs were either dreadfully easy or dreadfully boring, even if the monsters were solos (the dragon) or just much higher level- I tried a level 10 Chuul against the sample characters and another encounter with a Gnoll Daemonic Scourge (8) & a Gnoll Clawfighter (6). Both were easy, which was a little disturbing. A defender went down in each encounter, but novaing dailies and encounter powers in the same round with action points basically meant that they tore the enemies down to manageable levels.

The editions aren't entirely comparable, of course, but I do wonder how 4e's monster level compares to 3e's CR. If an elite of level X is supposed to challenge, but not actually threaten, a party of level X in 4e, that suggests that in 3e terms its CR lies somewhere between X and X+2.

Going backwards, a normal monster of lvl X would then be CR X-4 to X-2. In your examples then, the Chuul would be "CR" 6 to 8. Of course, 1st level is beefed up, and 3e's 20 levels got stretched to 30. So a CR difference of ~6 (7-1), modified for the larger level spread (6/30*20=4) becomes a hard, but doable fight. A 3e party of that level would, of course, be doomed due to the massive hp gain at low levels, but 4e's 1st level is boosted. In 3e terms then, we could guesstimate the equivalent fight being a party of 3rd level adventurers facing off against a CR 7. Hard, but not nearly as impossible an encounter as a 1st level 3e party facing a CR 10.

 

[Voss]

If characters are supposed to be taking 600 XP fights more than once per day, it holds that said fights cannot be balanced against the idea of said party nova-ing all of its daily powers each time.

Well, not each time. But any given time. And I suspect a significant number of players will try to save them for a boss fight. Or at least, just before they have to rest anyway.

Yes. It is to be expected that out-of-level enemies within the same XP range will produce results like this. The Chuul's attack and defense bonuses are supposed to be balanced against a 10th-level party, which means at least +5 over what you need to hit/defend from a 1st-level party. Meanwhile its damage is meant to be such that six of them threaten a 10th-level party, without necessarily killing someone every round.

However, just looking over the available monsters, I'm not sure thats true for other monsters at the upper end of that range.

It's to be expected then, that against 1st-level parties, its 'balance' will be - nearly always hitting for low damage, nearly never being hit but taking a lot of damage when it is, and ultimately being beaten with a near-certainty that no PC will die.

Hmm. The chuul can dish out a lot of damage from round 2 on. 2x 3d6+6 should shred low level characters fairly well.

On the other side of it, this may also mean that lower level creatures stay relevant longer. They have enough hit points that they don't auto drop to anything (including wizard spells in the 10-16 range), so a pack of level 3 skeleton warriors isn't something you can just ignore at level 10.

I think this could be good, but it could also get boring. The system has the potential to be very static, and high level combats will just be grind-fests.That worries me, and I need more information.


Or, the other situation that comes to mind, because of the dragon fight, which dragged out beyond the point of ridiculous, is that if the characters are 4th level, with 10-20 more hit points each, +2 to hit, bonuses from magical weapons, more powers and so on, will change from a grind, to almost easy. The dragon had a hard time dropping the PCs at first level. With 3 more levels worth of resources, I'm not convinced that it really can, and that thought also makes me sad.

 

[Victim]

Too many monsters are what can be called Glass Cannons. They can put out a staggering amount of damage, but just do not have the staying power they need to have a real impact. Others are just too easily neutralized (most undead).

END COMMUNICATION

I think most 3e characters are glass cannons, especially at high levels.

 

[fnwc]

In all fairness, many dms will fudge the hell out of that roll. It takes a special kind of balls to let the BBEG die of a failed save against the very first attack.

I'll do it, though; it's one of the reasons that my players believe that I let the dice fall where they may. (Which, almost entirely, I do.)

The problem with fudging die rolls is that for some DMs it will become habit. And the players very quickly learn not to cast certain spells or use certain effects against important monsters.

At the very extreme, it can go both ways: disintegrate will not hit the BBEG at the beginning of the battle, but hold person will if the party is nearly dead. While this is dramatic, players start to notice this behavior rather quickly. Brain and I used to play with a DM who did this every big battle. It was on ongoing joke that *every* die roll was fudged.

 

[Lacyon]

Well, not each time. But any given time. And I suspect a significant number of players will try to save them for a boss fight. Or at least, just before they have to rest anyway.

If all the players are unleashing their dailies in a single fight, they're getting +200% damage in the first round over using their at-wills instead. That's a lot like getting 2 extra actions each. If they're also using action points, that's 3 extra actions.

Presumably, tools that powerful aren't meant to be used in 'normal' fights unless the dice turn severely against the party. The 'boss fights' will probably be of higher-than-normal XP value, such as the Solo Black Dragon (which was maybe a bit much at nearly 50% more XP value than a 'normal' fight), and I expect to see the DMG say so.

However, just looking over the available monsters, I'm not sure thats true for other monsters at the upper end of that range.

If you stray too far out-of-level, the system's likely to break down.

Hmm. The chuul can dish out a lot of damage from round 2 on. 2x 3d6+6 should shred low level characters fairly well.

Okay, sure. But it has to hit with both attacks and a followup against the same target, who then fails his normal save and any extra saving throws the party throws his way. Granted, those attacks are individually likely to hit, but there's a lot of gain-a-save powers, besides the DC 15 Heal check to do same.

When there's 6 of these squaring off against a 10th-level party, there's a lot of chances for that to happen, and then all the Chuuls can try to finish that guy off, and party members will feel the urgency of using their abilities to prevent that from happening (by granting extra saves, forcing the Chuuls to back away and threatening OAs, etc.)

On the other side of it, this may also mean that lower level creatures stay relevant longer. They have enough hit points that they don't auto drop to anything (including wizard spells in the 10-16 range), so a pack of level 3 skeleton warriors isn't something you can just ignore at level 10.

Sure.

I think this could be good, but it could also get boring. The system has the potential to be very static, and high level combats will just be grind-fests.That worries me, and I need more information.

Well, that's supposed to be part of the point of the minion/normal/elite/solo classification. If you're just going to add a couple of skeleton warriors to a 10th-level fight, it's probably fine to use them as written. If you want a *bunch* of them (say, enough to constitute an entire 10th-level encounter), well, let's look at the stats we have:

Level 3 soldier (Skeleton Warrior) has an attack at +10, and defenses of 18/15/16/15, 45 hp.

Level 10 soldier (Chuul) has an attack of +17 and defenses of 27/26/20/21, 109 hp

A party that's used to fighting Chuuls is going to easily hit the Skeleton Warrior, and not be hit very frequently. There'll be almost 4 skeleton warriors per PC though, so there'll be several hits per round, and probably a crit or two for some extra damage, there's going to be a lot of rolling for not a lot of effect. Meanwhile, though the skeleton doesn't die in one hit, it is going to be hit by nearly every attack the PCs make against it, so they'll drop steadily and predictably. That fight is going to take a long time, and be pretty predictable (read: boring).

A level 10 minion is supposed to be worth something like 125 XP, compared to the Skeleton Warrior's 150. If you 'minionize' the Skeleton Warrior, making it something like a 10th or 11th-level minion, boosting its attack bonus and defenses, but dropping down its hp and (maybe) damage, suddenly each one hits more frequently, which means the total damage per round increases, but the length of combat decreases. In theory, such a fight would drain (on average) roughly the same amount of party resources, but the fight itself would be faster and more interesting - the PCs aren't hitting all the time, and the minions aren't missing all the time.

Or, the other situation that comes to mind, because of the dragon fight, which dragged out beyond the point of ridiculous, is that if the characters are 4th level, with 10-20 more hit points each, +2 to hit, bonuses from magical weapons, more powers and so on, will change from a grind, to almost easy. The dragon had a hard time dropping the PCs at first level. With 3 more levels worth of resources, I'm not convinced that it really can, and that thought also makes me sad.

Remember that the Dragon is supposed to be fighting 5 4th-level characters, not 6, and that its XP value is predicated on not everyone in the party dropping dailies on it. (From the reports I heard, it didn't have that much trouble dropping 1st-level PCs unless it failed its sleep save.

 

[Ulthwithian]

I find the discussion re: 'appropriate use of daily powers' quite interesting here. My personal take is that an 'even challenge' isn't predicated on 'going nova', but a daily or two might be used.

 

[Lacyon]

I find the discussion re: 'appropriate use of daily powers' quite interesting here. My personal take is that an 'even challenge' isn't predicated on 'going nova', but a daily or two might be used.

Something like that is reasonable. Obviously, if you're expected to fight multiple 'standard' encounters per day, they can't be predicated on everyone using a daily, because then you wouldn't have any left for the second encounter. But the idea that maybe one will be used - particularly if the fight is going poorly due to bad rolls or whatever - fits. (Similarly, they're probably balanced on the idea that about half the characters will use an Action Point in a given fight, assuming the 1 action point per two encounters is still the expected average).

Mearls stated on his blog that one of the reasons he put the challenging level 4 black dragon at the end of the fight was to show that PCs who saved their dailies (and had good teamwork, and had a bit of luck) had a chance of taking on something that would otherwise be out of their league. The implication, then, is that this is supposed to be an option most of the time, so regular fights probably aren't going to require dailies for the PCs to ultimately prevail, barring bad luck or poor matchups.

 

[AllisterH]

The editions aren't entirely comparable, of course, but I do wonder how 4e's monster level compares to 3e's CR. If an elite of level X is supposed to challenge, but not actually threaten, a party of level X in 4e, that suggests that in 3e terms its CR lies somewhere between X and X+2.

Going backwards, a normal monster of lvl X would then be CR X-4 to X-2. In your examples then, the Chuul would be "CR" 6 to 8. Of course, 1st level is beefed up, and 3e's 20 levels got stretched to 30. So a CR difference of ~6 (7-1), modified for the larger level spread (6/30*20=4) becomes a hard, but doable fight. A 3e party of that level would, of course, be doomed due to the massive hp gain at low levels, but 4e's 1st level is boosted. In 3e terms then, we could guesstimate the equivalent fight being a party of 3rd level adventurers facing off against a CR 7. Hard, but not nearly as impossible an encounter as a 1st level 3e party facing a CR 10.

I think the 4E basis of challenge is not how many resources a monster consumes (a CR X monster in 4E is supposed to only consume 20% of a 4 person level X party's resources) but how LONG it takes to beat said monster.

For example, a kobold skirmisher can kill a 1st level character in Y rounds whereas the PC is expected to be able to kill the monster in Y-Z rounds.