4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[thecasualoblivion]

Forked from: Sentimentality And D&D Editions OR Happiness Is The Edition That Brings You Joy

I accept that it's here, but don't see how it's inevitable that it should take the form it has, nor that it should be immune to criticism.

I also don't consider my objections to it just a result of a "fear of change". I wanted a lot of change. Reveille, you should just accept that 4E is just one bunch of guy's take on "improving D&D", and temporary. Nothing more nor less. It's "WOTC's Fantasy Heartbreaker", only it won't fail like all the others simply because it has the D&D name on the cover.

There is nothing more zen about accepting it than there is in pointing out it's flaws. That's what people did with 3E, and in your own admission that laid out the path for 4E.

I'm also not particularly sentimental. Right now, NO edition of D&D does it for me. 4E was supposed to fill that void, but just brings greater problems of it's own. Those who don't agree with your opinion aren't necessarily nostalgic or sentimental, and to make that assumption is somewhat patronising.

I see it as this way. A lot of "criticism" of 4E amounts to "it isn't OD&D/1E/2E/3E" and "I prefer edition X". People may go into detail about things, but the core meaning of what they say isn't any more than that. That doesn't really qualify as criticism. You are just stating a preference or lack therof and calling it criticism.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Concur.

I cut my teeth on 1E many, many moons ago and - as far as the sentimental aspects go - 1E is where it's at for me.

I think the thing I like most about 4E is that it's more like 1E.

I bet you can find a lot of people that started with 2E and find that as their favorite edition. And the same with 3E. Or 3.5E.

Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with offering constructive criticism for whatever ruleset it is that you're using.

Now, if you're continually picking at a ruleset you're not playing and have no intention of playing...I'd suggest you find a new hobby.

WP

 

[Remathilis]

Agreed.

I'm playing 4e right now and its not escaping my criticisms. They're aren't enough powers, the power structure doesn't yet allow for enough "unique" effects (beyond X damage + Y shift/status effect), skill challenges are a mess, their aren't enough traps, rituals & magic items in the core, combat seems to take forever for mundane fights unless you're using minions.

None of those are direct "X edition is better." Sure, X edition might have handled a few of those better (esp in the more, more, more categories) but none resort to "they gimped wizards" or such.

Of course, there is a third route of 4e criticism, see my sig for that.

 

[Loonook]

Forked from: Sentimentality And D&D Editions OR Happiness Is The Edition That Brings You Joy




I see it as this way. A lot of "criticism" of 4E amounts to "it isn't OD&D/1E/2E/3E" and "I prefer edition X". People may go into detail about things, but the core meaning of what they say isn't any more than that. That doesn't really qualify as criticism. You are just stating a preference or lack therof and calling it criticism.

Isn't the whole point of critiquing a game system boiling down to 'I like Edition/System/What-have-you X'? To say that somehow this type of critique is inappropriate against 4e is ignoring every White Wolf vs. WotC, GW vs. WW, Rolemaster v. Nobilis v. FATAL debate which has ever occurred in some dark, dodgy sweat-soaked Gencon hotel room or sleep-addled forum posting.

The valid critique starts with 'I prefer edition X' but in many cases there are reasons which this preference can affect the enjoyment of the game and thus have full rights to be aired so as to possibly find a way to resolve these issues without having to cling to an old edition (or rush to the new).

Cosmology, powers, core races, the wholesale corruption of campaign settings... yeah, that's great. Some people can enjoy it, and some can really just overlook and rely on separate older materials or homebrews to get them going.

However, the texture of this ruleset, the mouthfeel when you take a good swallow, seems too mixed up and doesn't have a natural feel. The system could be used for other things possibly, and used well; however, to say that one group of people has no right to be irritated that a system they find inferior has replaced the system they grew up with and enjoyed, a system which to them seems perfect . . . well, they just lost 1st party support for their favored system.

Good of you to be the arbiter of tastes while telling others not to do so.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[JackSmithIV]

I suppose my main problem with 4e criticism isn't that it's loaded with subjectivity, but more that people don't offer any alternatives or solutions. Most "criticism" of 4e is just pointless flame-throwing. Criticism implies suggestion of improvement, most of what I've seen at least is... well, I apologize if this may seem offensive, but whining. Just saying "I don't like _______, D&D is ruined for me, and I want everyone to know that I am displeased and hope to find more who share my thoughts or experience".

I don't mind criticism. I just don't see any.

 

[Nifft]

4e is my favorite edition so far. It still has many parts that suck.

Want to know specifics? Check out the bits I'm house ruling. House rules are the sincerest form of critique.

Cheers, -- N

 

[cwhs01]

Isn't the whole point of critiquing a game system boiling down to 'I like Edition/System/What-have-you X'? To say that somehow this type of critique is inappropriate against 4e is ignoring every White Wolf vs. WotC, GW vs. WW, Rolemaster v. Nobilis v. FATAL debate which has ever occurred in some dark, dodgy sweat-soaked Gencon hotel room or sleep-addled forum posting.

This is an "i hate apples because they aren't oranges" type of argument. And highly irrelevant and very counterproductive.

Cosmology, powers, core races, the wholesale corruption of campaign settings... yeah, that's great. Some people can enjoy it, and some can really just overlook and rely on separate older materials or homebrews to get them going.

These specifics are perfectly acceptable points of contention. Discussion of these points (and HP, milestones, multiclass rules etc.) are reasonable.
Some proponents of 4e like most of the new changes, others accept the system after adopting houserules and old material from previous editions. Some dislike most or all changes. Fine.
4e is not immune to critique. Just like 3e wasn't immune, 2e wasn't etc.

Discuss points that are relevant and people will listen and debate, or continue with apples vs. oranges and people won't.

 

[Fifth Element]

I see it as this way. A lot of "criticism" of 4E amounts to "it isn't OD&D/1E/2E/3E" and "I prefer edition X". People may go into detail about things, but the core meaning of what they say isn't any more than that. That doesn't really qualify as criticism. You are just stating a preference or lack therof and calling it criticism.

That's my observation as well.

Also, I find generally the criticism leveled at 4E also applies to other editions of D&D.

 

[xechnao]

I suppose my main problem with 4e criticism isn't that it's loaded with subjectivity, but more that people don't offer any alternatives or solutions. Most "criticism" of 4e is just pointless flame-throwing. Criticism implies suggestion of improvement, most of what I've seen at least is... well, I apologize if this may seem offensive, but whining. Just saying "I don't like _______, D&D is ruined for me, and I want everyone to know that I am displeased and hope to find more who share my thoughts or experience".

I don't mind criticism. I just don't see any.

Perhaps 4e as a system is so well bounded and consistent that makes it hard to change what they do not like regarding the effects of the system without changing basics of the system. At that point it would be like you ask them to analize you the system they like. But this need be a different discussion and on a different level, no?

 

[Loonook]

. . .

Just saying "I don't like _______, D&D is ruined for me, and I want everyone to know that I am displeased and hope to find more who share my thoughts or experience".

I don't mind criticism. I just don't see any.

Yeah, but this is a valid thing for someone to say. If 4e ruins D&D for the individual they have the right to say so... declaration of distaste is a valid criticism, and not all criticism need be positive. Criticism includes observation, reasoned judgment and value judgment as part and parcel of the definition.

As I said before, I trust that the system may be fine for others, but there are pieces which make no real sense to me, and to others, and the idea of change for change's sake doesn't sit well with some... and the changes wrought on setting materials seem to hit there. Perhaps if there was more support rather than distancing from the origins of the stories these setting represent there would be more support on that front...

But you can't please all people. And it is business. Certain things I hope for (no Modern 2.0 from Wizards, no attempts to really go after 3.X publishers, a more flexible GSL to allow individuals to come up with interesting takes) . . . but it is business.

Slainte,

-Loonook.