4e characters vs 3e characters. In Combat!

[Cwheeler]

Ok, we all know that 4e characters are far more powerful than their 3.x counterparts. But exactly how powerful? How many 3e characters would it take to bring down a 4e character of a similar level? What would the level difference between a 3e and a 4e character have to be for the fight to be even?

I ask these questions a) because I don't know, and b) because I'm thinking of running a Mech game that uses 3e (d20Modern) rules for the characters as humans, and 4e rules for the characters as mechs.

Any thoughts? (also, if anyone has the know-how to crunch some numbers, it would be greatly appreciated!)

 

[MortalPlague]

While 4th edition characters start out more powerful, they scale far slower. A 30th level character, for instance, has about half the hit points of a combat-class 3rd edition level 20 character. The damage also scales up in a similar fashion.

 

[Gimby]

4e ones more powerful?

Given that the 3e ones have access to save-or-dies, superior divination and mobility, miss chances and vastly stronger buffs if you were to match a mid level party of 3e characters against an equivilent 4e party they would probably annihilate them in one or two rounds.

Low level, I'd agree 4e characters are more powerful than their 3e counterparts, but as you get to level 10 or so the 3e ones will rapidly outstrip their 4e counterparts.

Assuming that matching up characters in this fashion is workable, due to the differences in rulesets, of course.

 

[Henrix]

The numbers scale very differently. A higher level fighter in 3e will have a much higher attack bonus, and probably AC, as well as hit points. And probably deals more damage.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Remember, 4E is 3.5 up to level 12 spresad over 30 levels.
Divide 30 by 13 and you get the power of 3.5 (after level 5).
Exceptions at levels 1-5 (4E wins there).

At low levels, 4E is dealing loads more damage, but after around level 6, 3.5 starts getting good Power attack damage (and combos like minusing AC instead of hit chance).

Now, I'd say saves and AC might be better on the 4E (as shields add to reflexes and levels raises them too).

Clerics heal as minor action in 4E, but standard in 3.5. Granted, most groups in 3.5 kill now and heal later but there are times when healing helps.

In a war of attrition 4E dominates (3.5 must rest the whole day after casting dailies).

 

[Herremann the Wise]

This would be an absolutely fascinating test - although I think you have it the wrong way around in terms of who would be more powerful level for level over the levels. I suppose the most fascinating thing is that it could be done. I suppose this shows that for all the "differences" between the editions, the basic engine behind them is so similar (something you just could not do between 2E vs 3.x for example).

Anyway, great idea overall and something definitely worth testing. Who knows, there's most probably a fascinating hybrid game in there somewhere.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[AllisterH]

There's also the question of what character class you're comparing and whether or not outside sources (a.k.a gear and buffs) should be factored in.

Using just the PHB for both systems.

For example, a 30th level 4e fighter PC using the gear he started off with at 1st level is STILL a powerful force with regard to say his 15th level self that HAS appropriate level gear and in comparison to the range of opponents at the EPIC tier (basically monsters of level 20-30)

Conversely, a 20th level fighter in 3.x using his 1st level stuff I don't think actually has a chance versus his 10th level self that does have appropriate level gear. Similarly, many of the CR monsters of level 13-20 are going to have a field day with our 20th level fighter with only 1st level gear.

Worse is what would happen if the lower level fighter had access to the level appropriate buffs that would be expected (level 15 inspiring warlord and level 10 cleric respectively). Both of the endgame fighters are looking at a much decreased rate of survival if buffs are taken into account but much more so for the 3.x fighter.

This basically applies to any of the martial classes as using just the PHB, most of their power comes from outside sources.

Then there's the Stamina vs Nova question.

Pretty much impossible to exhaust the personal resources of a 30th level wizard in 4e. Even if said wizard ran out of dailies, as long as they get a 5 minute breather, they are still a force to be reckoned with in comparison to the monsters of the epic tier. In fact, the wizard shouldn't even nead his dailies to put the smack down on the critters of level 20-27 IMO.

However, the 30th level wizard in 4e can't spike/NOVA his output to such an extent that he could solo say a 35th level monster (barring some orbwizard cheese)

This is in direct contrast to the 3.x version. A 20th level wizard can easily solo a 25th level monster if said wizard has their full slots available to them. Of course, the wizard could be ganked by the local village militia he started back at 1st level if the wizard ever ran out of juice.

 

[Umbran]

I say this is comparing apples to oranges.

The underlying systems are different. There is no objective standard by which they may be compared. There's no logical reason to even claim that one hit point in one system is "worth the same" as a hit point in the other system.

 

[Nifft]

4e Wizard: "Ha ha, they don't even have a Will defense!"

3e Wizard: "Whaddya mean they make all saves on a nine!?"

Cheers, -- N

 

[AllisterH]

I say this is comparing apples to oranges.

The underlying systems are different. There is no objective standard by which they may be compared. There's no logical reason to even claim that one hit point in one system is "worth the same" as a hit point in the other system.

Actually, it would be possible to compare them _somewhat_ in-system to one another.

Basically, how does a level X character compare to a level Y character in the same system and what would be the challenges it faces.

You're right though as comparing across editions is much harder. For example, as the above poster mentioned, there is no duration of spells in 4e per se. A 4e character basically can shake off any effect via their own ability whereas a 3.x class could be subject to a very long multiround effect.