D&D 4E 4e conversion of White Plume's hot mud room

[Pbartender]

In this case: what happens when the players rack up 3 failures?

Successes and failures are reset to 0 and they start the challenge over from the beginning, much like many published challenges involving wilderness travel.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Successes and failures are reset to 0 and they start the challenge over from the beginning, much like many published challenges involving wilderness travel.

Wow... seriously? Doesn't that defeat the major benefit of a skill challenge over "just roll some skill checks" ie - there's a limited amount of skill rolling before the thing is guaranteed to be over?

 

[Mesh Hong]

The problem with skill challenges is that everyone wants to use them for everything.

I can identify with this. In my experience as soon as the players are informed that they are in a Skill Challange Situation they have the tendancy to switch mentality and start looking for ways to either use their primary skill, or only perform actions that cannot result in a fail result (e.g. assisting another character or even worse doing nothing).

Amazingly though I have learnt that if you don't announce a Skill Challange Situation and instead continue as normal (player anounces what they are going to do, or roleplays conversation), then just ask for the most appropriate skill checks (at each appropriate point) then they act as normal and are prepared to accept a much broader scope of risk (i.e. they do not mind attempting skills they are not specialised in, or even have trained).

I suppose the ideal Skill Challange is the Secret Skill Challange, but then in reality this is no different to the way actions have always been resolved.

Alternately, to make it more interesting, draw up a map for the room, assign acrobatics DCs to move quickly on the bridge fragments, athletics DCs for swinging on chains, and then stage a combat in there.

This is absolutely the best way of handling the situation. If you create an interesting and exciting map, filled with different elements that both the PCs and the Enemies can interact with then you will get an excellent combat encounter.

When the players see that the creatures they are fighting are having to make the same skill checks as they are to get into the best position they will become a lot more involved.

Another thing I have learnt is that players love to see creatures fail. There is nothing they love more than to see a creature get pushed down it's own pit trap then have a hard time trying to climb out.

 

[Pbartender]

Wow... seriously? Doesn't that defeat the major benefit of a skill challenge over "just roll some skill checks" ie - there's a limited amount of skill rolling before the thing is guaranteed to be over?

Nope... There's a lot of examples of open-ended skill challenges out there now. In this situation, it can even make sense: Keep trying until you succeed or until you die by slipping and falling into the boiling hot mud.

In fact, in this challenge, I wouldn't even bother keeping track of failures... Hit point loss (and possible death) is failure enough. Let the players keep trying until they succeed, or until they lose enough hit points to convince them to give up.



I honestly never saw "finite number of skill checks" as a benefit of skill challenges. Quite the opposite, in fact... Before skill challenges it was usually "roll one skill check to bypass an entire encounter". Skill challenges were developed to string that situation out more than a bit.

 

[kaomera]

Nope... There's a lot of examples of open-ended skill challenges out there now. In this situation, it can even make sense: Keep trying until you succeed or until you die by slipping and falling into the boiling hot mud.

It might make sense, but IMO it doesn't seem like it would be a lot of fun.

In fact, in this challenge, I wouldn't even bother keeping track of failures... Hit point loss (and possible death) is failure enough. Let the players keep trying until they succeed, or until they lose enough hit points to convince them to give up.

And this just seems to me like another way of saying "don't run it as a Skill Challenge".

Skill challenges seem (to me) meant to expand on what would be otherwise be a single skill check because a single skill check isn't much fun. They also seem to be intended to avoid simply rolling until you make it (and in the above example, with the players I'm used to dealing with, they would try until they got low-ish on hps, and then take an extended rest before restarting the cycle...), limiting you to a certain number of checks; again because it's supposed to be more fun that way. Where they succeed or fail is in making the tactical choices within those checks fun / interesting / meaningful. Personally I don't think that this encounter manages that, at least as written. Both the choices and the consequences are simply too limited for my tastes.

 

[Pbartender]

Skill challenges seem (to me) meant to expand on what would be otherwise be a single skill check because a single skill check isn't much fun.

Absolutely.

They also seem to be intended to avoid simply rolling until you make it (and in the above example, with the players I'm used to dealing with, they would try until they got low-ish on hps, and then take an extended rest before restarting the cycle...), limiting you to a certain number of checks; again because it's supposed to be more fun that way. Where they succeed or fail is in making the tactical choices within those checks fun / interesting / meaningful. Personally I don't think that this encounter manages that, at least as written. Both the choices and the consequences are simply too limited for my tastes.

You're probably right...

But my underlying point is that one need not be slavishly devoted to the basic structure of a skill challenge. It's the variations on the theme that keep it interesting.

In all honesty, I probably wouldn't treat this room as a skill challenge either. I'd probably run the geysers as one set of hazards (Caustic Geysers on DMG p91 would be an excellent start), and the slippery, dangling platforms as a second set of hazards (probably using a slightly modified Treacherous Ice Sheet from DMG p89). Keep the PCs in initiative throughout and run it like a combat encounter without enemies (with the exception of the hazards).

People really underestimate the usefulness of running "combat" encounters that only feature traps and hazards

 

[kaomera]

But my underlying point is that one need not be slavishly devoted to the basic structure of a skill challenge. It's the variations on the theme that keep it interesting.

I think you're right - and unfortunately it kind of bugs me. I really like what Skill Challenges seem to have to offer, but a lot of the suggestions that seem to "click" best for me boil down to "Run something that isn't a Skill Challenge". What you've described is pretty much how I would have expected to see the room handled in 3e: a series of individual skill checks with separate pass & fail results for each...

People really underestimate the usefulness of running "combat" encounters that only feature traps and hazards

To each his own, but I've played through three such encounters in 4e, and numerous in 3e, and I've not usually found them much fun. What's usually missing is tension, well that and "take some damage" isn't much fun as a consequence (although here you run up against "Why kill characters if character death isn't fun?" ~ "Because the whole game is less fun if characters can never die.").

You're supposed to be able to create a failure result that's still fun; ideally the players shouldn't particularly care OOCly if the characters succeed or fail - the story is cool either way. But D&D rarely works that way, the wish-fulfillment is usually a vital part of the fun. BUT - triumphing over adversity is usually more fun than simply blowing though tissue-paper obstacles...

So what I think this kind of encounter needs is 1) some kind of pressure forcing the players onward, and 2) an "out" where the PCs don't get dropped straight into the lava or die via hp attrition... Actually, I think the entire opening sequence of Raiders of the Lost Ark is a great prototype for a fun (and failed) Skill Challenge...

(Ah, sorry, I think I've drifted way off topic... =/ )

 

[Pbartender]

To each his own, but I've played through three such encounters in 4e, and numerous in 3e, and I've not usually found them much fun.

Right, but much of that can be in the presentation and implementation.

What's usually missing is tension, well that and "take some damage" isn't much fun as a consequence... ...You're supposed to be able to create a failure result that's still fun; ideally the players shouldn't particularly care OOCly if the characters succeed or fail - the story is cool either way. But D&D rarely works that way, the wish-fulfillment is usually a vital part of the fun. BUT - triumphing over adversity is usually more fun than simply blowing though tissue-paper obstacles...

Here's a secret little trick, though...

The appearance of danger can provide just as much dramatic tension in the game even if the actual danger is minimal. In other words, the actual difficulty of the challenge, numbers-wise, may be minimal, but if the players think that their characters are in danger, they'll act accordingly. And there's never any dissappointment, if they never actually realize how easily they blew through that paper obstacle.

Behind the screen, the DM knows it's a paper obstacle. Fromthe other side, the players think they triumphed over adversity. It's not alwasy easy to pull off and many people think it's a dirty trick, but it sure does work well.

So what I think this kind of encounter needs is 1) some kind of pressure forcing the players onward, and 2) an "out" where the PCs don't get dropped straight into the lava or die via hp attrition... Actually, I think the entire opening sequence of Raiders of the Lost Ark is a great prototype for a fun (and failed) Skill Challenge...

Sure, but we could do that here, with the apprpriate types of hazard/traps.

Consider this:

We've got geyers that peroidically blast nearby squares with boiling hot acid (or whatever). If the characters stay too long in one place, they get hit. But, gives each of the geysers a different pattern of eruption. The PCs will have to time their jumps just right to get across without getting hit.

On top of that, the platforms they need to leapfrog across are wobbly and slippery. If they aren't careful, they may end up falling prone or sliding toward the edge of the platform on a failed Athletics or Acrobatics check.

How do you get everyone across, when in all likelyhood not everyone is good at Atheletics or Acrobatics? Time for some critical thinking on the part of the players.

So, once they've entered the room, the geysers provide all the impetus you need to keep the PCs moving through, and slips on the disks will provide all the tension you need.

The only other thing you need is a way to keep from going back the way they came.

(Ah, sorry, I think I've drifted way off topic... =/ )

It's all a means to an end, eh?

 

[Mythlore]

I've just taken into consideration Pbartender's words, and I think I've come to this brilliant conclusion.

A trap is something that can damage you. (actual hurt points)
A skill challenge is something that might exhaust or tire you. (potential healing surge)

An obstacle is something that simply hinders you. (blocks, restricts, slows movement)
A hazard is something that adds conditions to the field. (movement penalties, complex actions)

In this case, then, the concept that this is a Skill Challenge might be the wrong presentation format for something that is more like a Trap or Hazard. Since it poses a threat of injury and a condition on movement -- penalties for failing to avoid the trap, and a skill check to avoid the trap's effect. Likely: countermeasures might disable it, but it would have to be difficult to handle, unless a rogue wanted to rush through first and risk getting himself blasted by the trap. If he makes it through, he runs the challenge, and then has to do a disable device / thievery check (a little extra die-rolling). Each character then can avoid the trap challenge -- or if there isn't a party rogue, then you can have every character play the game of "help your ally" and apply your +2 to +5 aid bonus to helping another ally across. Failure could result in "blasted by steam, pushed 2 into mud; take hot mud (fire) damage, must swim to next block; slowed for next jump, penalty to next jump check".

 

[Henry]

Below is the raw write-up I had for a gameday I ran a 4E conversion of White Plume Mountain for about a year ago. It's pretty rough, so take it for what it's worth, or possible ideas.

As for Skill Challenges, I've never thought that skill challenges should be written so as to break the adventure -- in fact, they say something similar to that in the DMG. Instead, if they fail the challenge, as said they should lose something, or make it harder for them to complete a task, not make it impossible. Some of the things from white plume mountain already assume that some magics are negated (like the "frictionless room" thing) and those same magics don't exist in 4E, or are harder to come by, so it's easier to write for them; on the other hand, they also use save or die liberally too in some older modules, and those should be at least written to a "two strikes and you're out" mindset.

Manmade stone platform opens out to lake of boiling mud; two geysers of boiling mud pop every few seconds. Southeast across the chamber, 50 feet away, is another stone platform, and a wooden door. Suspended across the room from the ceiling 35 feet up are a set of immense iron chains, with a wooden disk stapled to each one by a metal ring. All of it looks slippery. Every 30 seconds (5 rounds), geyser A erupts, stretching to the ceiling; every 20 seconds, geyser B erupts. The two platforms closest to the geysers are coated in boiling mud when this happens, and PCs on them must make a saving throw or be coated in boiling mud, taking 1d10 points of fire damage.
PCs wanting to move from disc to disc must make an Acrobatics OR Athletics check (DC 15) to jump or time a swing from chain to chain. If they wait 1 round, they can get a +2 to the check for each round they wait, to a max of +6. If they fail, they don’t make the jump, clinging to current chain for dear life. If they fail by more than 5, they must make a saving throw or fall into the mud below. They take 1d10 fire damage per round until rescued. If they can get at least one across safely, they can string some ropes to make it easier to cross.