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4e Cosmology Changes

Mighty Veil

First Post
I have big time mix feelings.

The planar wheel I did like up until 2e's Planescape ruined it. I like the idea of a planar worlds which are more accessible and don't have crazy rules. I do miss the elemental planes but they made for planes I couldn't imagine adventuring in. EC isn't so bad because of that reason. I suppose one could invent the demi-planes of fire, air, water, earth if one really wants the old planes. The names they thought up are awful. Feywild/Faerie plane idea I'm really mixed on. I feel there's now too much of a Celtic and faerie fairytales feel to it and because of that, the game itself.

I'm mixed. Some I don't like. Don't like that they kept that stupid Sigil and the ever lame "Maiden of Pain".
 

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DrunkonDuty

he/him
Now, some people like the old planes---but to me they were as evocative as a shopping mall map ("Dante's Inferno? Yeah, that's downstairs just past Mount Olympus and the place where dead Vikings go. Near the food court.")

LOL.

Over all I'm not a fan of 4E but I do like the cosmology so far. It is simple yet flexible enough to be able to add in lots of expansion & variation and not need to retcon. And if you really want to visit Dante's Inferno (and who doesn't?) the GM can throw it in easily enough somewhere in the Astral Sea.

I do think giving the Fey a Celtic universe of their own is pandering to the 'Elves are neo-celtic coolness' crowd but hey, why not? I have my days of neo-celtic love. And doing this for one sub-genre it leaves the thing open to expansion in a similar vein. By which I mean if there's a Celtic Elf parallel universe why not an Egyptian Animal-Headed People one? Etc. Or you can just treat the Fey Wild as Faerie in the more traditional sense and leave the culturally specific worlds out in the Astral Sea with the appropriate gods.

EDIT: up above someone mentioned that the Feywild thing reminds of Ars Magica regio. That was the first thing that came into my head too. And it IS a great idea.
 
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Shemeska

Adventurer
Mighty Veil said:
I'm mixed. Some I don't like. Don't like that they kept that stupid Sigil and the ever lame "Maiden of Pain".

"Lady of Pain". The "Maiden of Pain" was a title for Loviatar, the Finnish/FR goddess of pain and torture.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
My feelings on the new 4e cosmology are decidedly negative. At the moment the changes seem decidedly destructive and what many things have been replaced with now seem shallow and poorly detailed. Much of it seems like change for the sake of change, and the reuse of many terms in different wrapping for 4e only makes it seem all that much more wierd to me.

Archons have gone from gnostic inspired celestials of strict but benevolent order to elementals with helmets. The yugoloths/daemons have gone from being scheming, manipulative fiends that predate the existence of gods and mortals alike, to 4e "soldier demons".

I see a lot of the trends of certain 3e planar products (Planar Handbook and Book of Exalted Deeds) put on steroids and given front and center billing for 4e. Those books were often panned for being dry, somewhat shallow in their treatment of their given topics, and not always up to snuff on being as well researched on prior lore as they perhaps could have been. 4e so far hasn't inspired me. It feels like pastiche that's going to constantly be compared to what came before it, and oftentimes gave things a much deeper, richer exploration that the 4e sources.

On the 'not researched as much as possible' point, 4e doesn't have to worry about that as much since they've scrapped the idea of continuity with those prior sources. Makes it a lot easier when you don't have to worry about knowing those three decades of sources in order to best work on more stuff. I have to lament that loss of history and iterative expansion on that D&D mythology that developed over the years.

W&M really rubbed me the wrong way, because when it talked about prior editions' material in its justification for changing certain things for 4e, it played rather fast and loose with the facts of some of the sources it talked about being inspired by. I'm sorry, but just because mezzodaemons and nycadaemons were summoned by and served drow in their first 1e module appearance, that doesn't mean it's absolutely logical to make them CE demons in 4e. That's especially true when that original module explicitly has them as not CE and not associated with the Abyss or the Hells. It comes off as a case of scrambling for earlier sources to try to justify a decision that came down to some personal preference. I would have accepted (if not used) "this is how it was before, but we have some new ideas we would like to try with these fiends. So trust us to reinvent them in evocative ways". Instead it comes off as really poor reasoning not supported by the sources it claims as justification.

I hate to point it out, but the 3e planar sourcebooks that had very limited involvement by WotC proper (FCI and FCII) were generally regarded as some of the best books from 3e, and in FC:I's case, one of the best planar books of all time for D&D. If the same trends from the BoED and PlHB continue into the 4e planar material, and a lot of the team from those are front and center in 4e, it's going to be very difficult for me to have anything but a skeptical eye to WotC's 4e efforts (already compounded by lingering frustration with the loss of Dragon/Dungeon, the poor state of Gleemax, potential vaporware on the DDI, etc).

Beyond that, 4e's marketing (and some designers' comments) went almost out of their way to mock and belittle a lot of things I rather enjoyed about the cosmology and planes prior to 4e.
 

fiddlerjones

First Post
I am almost entirely pleased with the new cosmology. There's a nice parallelism that makes a lot of sense - Astral Sea (order) vs. Elemental Chaos (um. chaos); Feywild (life) vs. Shadowfell (death). Of course it's "poorly detailed," but that leaves them open-ended, which I believe was a conscious choice which I greatly appreciate.

The crux of my problem with the old cosmology (and the reason I rarely used it) was that it seemed arbitrarily constructed around game mechanics. In short, I'm throughly in agreement with the "shopping mall map" theory.

That said, there are a few things I don't like, but those are easily changed. I'm disappointed at the change to the Marut and the Yugoloths, but overall the change has been greatly for the better.
 


Fenes

First Post
I won't be using the new system, no matter what rules I am using, but I might be using the Feywild and similar concepts - I already had a trip to Fayrie in my current campaign a few months back.
 

Mathew_Freeman

First Post
I've come to the same conclusion as some other posters here - I liked playing in Planescape Campaigns, but the idea of running them made my head spin. To me, it was a particular setting that worked well when it was being run by a DM that cared about it. I was lucky enough to game under a good DM in a couple of plane-hopping campaigns, and I'm glad I did.

However...

I also really like the new cosmology. I love how the Shadowfell and Feywild can be reached almost by accident. I love that there are just less planes to go around, and that Plane Shift seems not to be there at all, which means a lot less random plane-hopping.

As far as I can see, the new cosmology still supports the kind of multi-planar game that some people enjoy, but focuses the core of the gameplay on the World. It also avoids the kind of jargon of "Prime Material Planes" (as opposed to "Sub-Prime Material Planes"?) and is good for new gamers to come in and start the game afresh.

I completely understand the frustrations of Planescape fans, and I have a lot of sympathy for them - but I also believe a group of gamers with such creativity as them can find a way to make Planescape live even if WotC decreed the new D&D cosmology was ladder-shaped.
 

Jürgen Hubert

First Post
I liked the Great Wheel cosmology, especially its Planescape incarnation which is one of my favorite settings ever.

I haven't read too much about the new cosmology, but I'm willing to look at it by its own merits, and I'm looking forward to the new Manual of the Planes. I especially like the inclusion of the Feywild, however. I've always been a fan of the fey, especially in their "uncaring, alien entities with only superficial human appearance", and anything that gives them a greater prominence is fine with me (on a related note, I'm really looking forward to Hellboy II...).
 

Fenes

First Post
THe way I see it, I will be better served by adding what I like from 4e's take on the planes to my take on the great wheel, instead of the other way around.
 

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