4e Magic in practice

[Mercule]

So, my 3.5 campaign is still running and we've only had one trial run of 4e. I speak very little from experience.

One of the main concerns -- probably the biggest, actually -- my group has with moving to 4e is wizards and the way magic works. I don't think any cares about clerics, but wizards are a big deal.

The grognards are really concerned about the limited number of "cast it now" spells in 4e. After the playtest, the player who picked up the wizard was pretty ticked about it. Actually, I think he spent the last half of the session stewing. His isn't the only complaint I've heard, either.

My take on it is that the magic system reads a lot like I think magic works in the Harry Dresden novels. Harry has a few tricks that he can pull out at will. Everything else is a time-consuming ritual. This doesn't bother me. In fact, I've always hated that there was nothing a wizard could do that he couldn't do quickly or that identify was treated just like magic missle in terms of whether you could cast it.

There are also concerns about "gimping" wizards in 4e, but I think that's more wizard-centric players than anything else. I've said before that I think they may have gone too far with invisibility effects, but I won't miss the teleporting and flying.

So, who's got some actual play experience? Is there anything to these concerns?

 

[Mort]

So, my 3.5 campaign is still running and we've only had one trial run of 4e. I speak very little from experience.

One of the main concerns -- probably the biggest, actually -- my group has with moving to 4e is wizards and the way magic works. I don't think any cares about clerics, but wizards are a big deal.

The grognards are really concerned about the limited number of "cast it now" spells in 4e. After the playtest, the player who picked up the wizard was pretty ticked about it. Actually, I think he spent the last half of the session stewing. His isn't the only complaint I've heard, either.

My take on it is that the magic system reads a lot like I think magic works in the Harry Dresden novels. Harry has a few tricks that he can pull out at will. Everything else is a time-consuming ritual. This doesn't bother me. In fact, I've always hated that there was nothing a wizard could do that he couldn't do quickly or that identify was treated just like magic missle in terms of whether you could cast it.

There are also concerns about "gimping" wizards in 4e, but I think that's more wizard-centric players than anything else. I've said before that I think they may have gone too far with invisibility effects, but I won't miss the teleporting and flying.

So, who's got some actual play experience? Is there anything to these concerns?

Overall I agree with your position. I do think that rituals are rather limited at this point, but that will be quickly remedied with official WoTC stuff and 3rd party splatbooks - I like the fact that wizards can only do some things quickly .

I actually love the way they handle invisibility - it lasts a short time but you can maintain it longer by sacrificing actions - so you can remain invisible for some time but the stuff you can do is slightly limited.

RAW flight is limited to 5 minutes - personally I have no problem with making it something like - sustain standard to sustain for longer (so no flying invisible fireballing wizard - but he can still fly).

 

[Obryn]

My take on it is that the magic system reads a lot like I think magic works in the Harry Dresden novels. Harry has a few tricks that he can pull out at will. Everything else is a time-consuming ritual.

Holy cow. I never thought about this, but you're spot on with that observation.

-O

 

[Mercule]

Holy cow. I never thought about this, but you're spot on with that observation.

It helped that I read the extant Dresden books back-to-back and 4e was released about the time I finished book eight. For a couple of months, I saw Dresden everywhere -- which doesn't change my observation.

 

[Obryn]

It helped that I read the extant Dresden books back-to-back and 4e was released about the time I finished book eight. For a couple of months, I saw Dresden everywhere -- which doesn't change my observation.

Nope, I'm a Dresden Files fanatic, but haven't read any of the books in a few months, but still - it fits perfectly.

-O

 

[Psion]

My take on it is that the magic system reads a lot like I think magic works in the Harry Dresden novels. Harry has a few tricks that he can pull out at will. Everything else is a time-consuming ritual.

Which makes it a wonderful magic system for D20 Modern (indeed, the idea of rituals as separate from spells sort of got its start in D20 modern, at least inside WotC staffers.)

 

[WhatGravitas]

Yeah, same observation here - I've picked up the first Dresden Files novel October... and said "I want to play that".

And then I get 4E!

Cheers, LT.

 

[llamatron2000]

Wizards aren't gimped. But they do play differently.

See, the problem with wizards and D&D is the fact that a level 20 wizard is Master of the Arcane, Manipulator of Everything. On the other hand? A level 20 fighter is still only a master of whatever weapon he's wielding. There lies our disconnect.

So to remedy this, in 4e, magic has been made more "primitive", if you will. Mages don't retain the same kind of control over everything including the kitchen sink. It's a taxing effort to pull off those really flashy spells, and it's a pain to focus the energies needed to reliably use more than a few at-will spells.

Don't get me wrong, here. Wizards do amazing things that fighters just aren't capable of. They have a spellbook to switch out daily spells with, and their powers are the penultimate in battlefield control. Don't believe me? Most of the wizard dailies -win- encounters. Flaming Sphere and Sleep, especially. The flavor's still there. A wizard played properly dictates the flow of a battlefield, either with effects that discourage movement through certain areas, enchantments on the enemy(and sometimes your friends), or the simple ability to deal damage over entire swathes of the battlefield(something that other classes can't do anywhere near as easily as the wizard)

 

[beeflv30]

After running 6 sessions my groups wizard is near 6th lv and I think they are more balanced and they seem to still play like wizards. One complaint is of course the lack of more spells like in previous editions where there were more options if you wanted to not just blast through your foes. But with more books (Arcane power). I think the Wizard will be near the stature he was at in 3.5 but balanced. I also am hoping they bring back Wish in the form of a ritual.

 

[Mercule]

So, I ran some numbers, just to see how things fell. I decided to see how 3.5 and 4e compare in raw "spells per day". I'm not really a wizard player -- rogue is more my style -- so the assumptions may be a bit off.

Basic assumptions:
- Hit points scale differently. This means comparing damage output is irrelevant. That's why I'm comparing number of spells.

3e assumptions:
- Wizards start with an 18 int and max it out as possible. This means all stat gains go into INT and wizards attempt to gain Tomes of Clear Thought.
- Corollary: INT increases +2 every four levels. This may not be entirely accurate, but linear scaling works well.
- Epic feats are used to gain higher level slots. Again, not necessarily perfect, but a reasonable average.
- Rings of Wizardry, feats, etc. are not counted because they represent an explicit opportunity cost in other areas that would not be reflected here.

3e results:

Level        Daily Spells
   1                2
  10               23
  20               51
  30               59

4e assumptions:
- Encounter, utility, and at-will spells count for more than one slot each day. Some utility spells are daily, but this is balanced by at-wills being, well, at-will.
- Corollary: Encounter, utility, and at-will spells are counted twice at heroic tiers and thrice at paragon/epic tiers.
- The availability of rituals is equivalent to roughly half as many "slots" as the number of powers otherwise available.

4e results:

Level         Powers           Ritual "slots"         Effective Spells
   1               4                   2                         9
  10               9                   5                         24
  20              14                   7                         44
  30              17                   8                         51

So, I'd say the 4e wizard doesn't fair that poorly.