4e Modern

[MechaPilot]

I like 4e and feel the changes have generally been good. I would like to apply some of this to my other games and began thumbing through my other books. It occurs to me that many of the feats in Modern could just be turned into 4e style powers. This alteration to the feats seems relatively easy, for the few i've done, but the classes are posing a bit of a problem.

Most notably, is the conversion of class talents into powers and the allocation of class defense bonuses. Do the tough and strong hero both get a +2 to Fort defense? Or does one of them have the +2 split betwixt 2 defenses?

Any suggestions or thoughts?

 

[Desert Hare]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...0-modern-forked-thread-d20-modern-failed.html

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like 4e and feel the changes have generally been good. I would like to apply some of this to my other games and began thumbing through my other books. It occurs to me that many of the feats in Modern could just be turned into 4e style powers. This alteration to the feats seems relatively easy, for the few i've done, but the classes are posing a bit of a problem.

Most notably, is the conversion of class talents into powers and the allocation of class defense bonuses. Do the tough and strong hero both get a +2 to Fort defense? Or does one of them have the +2 split betwixt 2 defenses?

Any suggestions or thoughts?

There have been a few different approaches. I tend to think I would not try to re-use the "ability focused" classes again. The thread linked by Desert Hare should provide some more ideas and also links to other threads on this topic.

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It's interesting that this topic is cropping up again these days. Wonder if it will be a sign for WotC that there is still a market for a "modern" game built on D&D 4 foundation? (And also maybe for Paizo that maybe a "Pathfinder d20 Modern" might also find its audience?)

 

[drothgery]

Also, this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-rules-discussion/245441-new-modern.html

 

[pawsplay]

4e is really geared toward combat, delving, and exploration. Does anyone see that a potentially problematic paradigm when applied to a modern game? Also, what does modern starleather look like? What is a modern Epic Destiny?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

4e is really geared toward combat, delving, and exploration.

3E was geared toward combat, delving and exploration. And it spawned of Spycraft, M&M and D20 Modern.

The things one could "steal" from 4E are:

- Math.
Aspects like half level bonus, predictable ability bonuses, defenses instead of saves, ability scores affect attack and damage, feat progression.

- Powers.
You can have combat powers and non-combat powers. Stuff maybe like "Well-Connected - Adventure Power. Once per adventure, you remember just the right contact to help you in your current situation."

- Role concept - probably expanded to reasonably cover a non-combat area. The Strong/Fast/Tough and Smart/Dedicated/Charismatic already showed which direction this could go - you have a "combat role" and you have a "non-combat" role. The only issue I have here with d20 Modern is that you did have to pick - at least in theory - between combat and non-combat roles - though it was far more interesting to combine then, and play something like a Fast/Charismatic or Strong/Smart. (I indeed played a Strong/Smart character, and that was pretty interesting - playing a decent fencer and scientifically minded guy in a d20 Past campaign was very entertaining.)

 

[Justin D. Jacobson]

4e is really geared toward combat, delving, and exploration. Does anyone see that a potentially problematic paradigm when applied to a modern game?

It's a problem, but I think a surmountable one as long as you are aware of it in defining the game world.

Also, what does modern starleather look like? What is a modern Epic Destiny?

Velin battle armor? Red Truth Code Author?

 

[pawsplay]

I have a hard time imagining a group of characters in a SF universe steadily upgrading their equipment over time. I mean, you don't see Commander Worf in Velin Battle Armor, or Troy with a psi-enhancing helmet array, etc. Epic destinies could work in a setting where there is a definable endpoint, like for instance, a manipulator of Red Truth becoming a demi-godlike being or an intelligent AI becoming a microverse of its own creation. I have a harder time seeing an epic destiny in something like Starship Troopers, the X-Files, or Ghost Dog.

3E was geared toward combat, delving and exploration. And it spawned of Spycraft, M&M and D20 Modern.

While those statements are independently true, there is a rhetorical slip there. What I meant in the case of 4e was, "This is what there are rules for," not simply, "There is a lot of this." 3e had rules for crafting, social interaction, noncombat roles, and so forth. 4e does not really have a place for a Negotiator or the Windfall feat or Skill Focus (Craft:Mechanical).

You could probably imitate the structures, but the result would be rather different, with characters "summoning" contacts or buffing equipment to represent their technical expertise or interaction skills causing opponents to hesitate or to take a specific move action or whatever. You can see some of this in Star Wars Saga, which yet has perserved some of the structures of 3e in terms of knowledge skills, interaction abilities, and so forth. Even there, the system strains quite a bit.

 

[ProfessorPain]

The thing that made d20 work for me, was the skills. I think 4E would need to take a different approach with skills to work for a modern setting. More skills. Also, I never found leveling very useful for modern settings either. Too much discrepancy in power levels doesn't work well for genres that have no magic or special powers. That said, 4E could work. But they would need to make some modifications. 3E didn't translate directly into modern settings either. But they managed to make it work. Honestly though, a game system like GURPS is probably much better for moden games than either 4e OR 3e.

 

[wingsandsword]

Wonder if it will be a sign for WotC that there is still a market for a "modern" game built on D&D 4 foundation? (And also maybe for Paizo that maybe a "Pathfinder d20 Modern" might also find its audience?)

Here is why I don't want a d20 Modern built on the 4e framework:

Combat Roles. They are clunky and arbitrary in a fantasy game, and just don't work in a modern game when they are what define a class and character like in 4e in the interest of "niche protection".

Let's say I'm running a Dark*Matter campaign, and one player wants a PC inspired by Dana Scully. Okay, in d20 Modern that's easy to do: a Smart Hero/Dedicated Hero with plenty of ranks in Investigate, Research, Heal and Knowledge (Earth & Life Sciences), and taking levels in Investigator for an Advanced class.

For a 4e style game where classes are just your combat role and "power source", is she a Martial Leader, a Martial Controller, a Martial Defender or a Martial Striker? What "role" and "power source" (all Martial all the time?) would James Bond, Jason Bourne, or Jack Ryan be (3 other fictional characters that would be good examples of different types of modern-day PC's, albeit mid-to-high level ones)? What would John Rambo, John McClain, or Joe Friday be? What about Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark or Nick Fury? All those characters I could make easily with d20 Modern (a few would be fairly low level, a few would definitely be 20th level), but it's harder to imagine them with 4e style classes.

One gaming group I played with for a while had the concept that the ultimate proof of how good a universal, near-future or modern-day RPG was how good you could model yourself with it. Since the group had a number of members with advanced degrees, military experience, martial arts training, and other "adventurer type" skills, it seemed like a fair test that if the system couldn't model a fictional version of the player with decent fidelity it wasn't a good system. I really wonder how anything built on 4e's concept of niche-protection before all else could model real people (or even most fictional characters)

4e is built very much on being a tactical miniatures combat game first and foremost with everything else being an afterthought, and most modern-day adventures I've run and played in are ones where combat is only one part and exploration, diplomacy/interaction and research/information gathering are equally important (if not moreso than combat).