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<blockquote data-quote="wingsandsword" data-source="post: 4700952" data-attributes="member: 14159"><p>Here is why I don't want a d20 Modern built on the 4e framework:</p><p></p><p>Combat Roles. They are clunky and arbitrary in a fantasy game, and just don't work in a modern game when they are what define a class and character like in 4e in the interest of "niche protection".</p><p></p><p>Let's say I'm running a Dark*Matter campaign, and one player wants a PC inspired by Dana Scully. Okay, in d20 Modern that's easy to do: a Smart Hero/Dedicated Hero with plenty of ranks in Investigate, Research, Heal and Knowledge (Earth & Life Sciences), and taking levels in Investigator for an Advanced class.</p><p></p><p>For a 4e style game where classes are just your combat role and "power source", is she a Martial Leader, a Martial Controller, a Martial Defender or a Martial Striker? What "role" and "power source" (all Martial all the time?) would James Bond, Jason Bourne, or Jack Ryan be (3 other fictional characters that would be good examples of different types of modern-day PC's, albeit mid-to-high level ones)? What would John Rambo, John McClain, or Joe Friday be? What about Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark or Nick Fury? All those characters I could make easily with d20 Modern (a few would be fairly low level, a few would definitely be 20th level), but it's harder to imagine them with 4e style classes.</p><p></p><p>One gaming group I played with for a while had the concept that the ultimate proof of how good a universal, near-future or modern-day RPG was how good you could model yourself with it. Since the group had a number of members with advanced degrees, military experience, martial arts training, and other "adventurer type" skills, it seemed like a fair test that if the system couldn't model a fictional version of the player with decent fidelity it wasn't a good system. I really wonder how anything built on 4e's concept of niche-protection before all else could model real people (or even most fictional characters)</p><p></p><p>4e is built very much on being a tactical miniatures combat game first and foremost with everything else being an afterthought, and most modern-day adventures I've run and played in are ones where combat is only one part and exploration, diplomacy/interaction and research/information gathering are equally important (if not moreso than combat).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wingsandsword, post: 4700952, member: 14159"] Here is why I don't want a d20 Modern built on the 4e framework: Combat Roles. They are clunky and arbitrary in a fantasy game, and just don't work in a modern game when they are what define a class and character like in 4e in the interest of "niche protection". Let's say I'm running a Dark*Matter campaign, and one player wants a PC inspired by Dana Scully. Okay, in d20 Modern that's easy to do: a Smart Hero/Dedicated Hero with plenty of ranks in Investigate, Research, Heal and Knowledge (Earth & Life Sciences), and taking levels in Investigator for an Advanced class. For a 4e style game where classes are just your combat role and "power source", is she a Martial Leader, a Martial Controller, a Martial Defender or a Martial Striker? What "role" and "power source" (all Martial all the time?) would James Bond, Jason Bourne, or Jack Ryan be (3 other fictional characters that would be good examples of different types of modern-day PC's, albeit mid-to-high level ones)? What would John Rambo, John McClain, or Joe Friday be? What about Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark or Nick Fury? All those characters I could make easily with d20 Modern (a few would be fairly low level, a few would definitely be 20th level), but it's harder to imagine them with 4e style classes. One gaming group I played with for a while had the concept that the ultimate proof of how good a universal, near-future or modern-day RPG was how good you could model yourself with it. Since the group had a number of members with advanced degrees, military experience, martial arts training, and other "adventurer type" skills, it seemed like a fair test that if the system couldn't model a fictional version of the player with decent fidelity it wasn't a good system. I really wonder how anything built on 4e's concept of niche-protection before all else could model real people (or even most fictional characters) 4e is built very much on being a tactical miniatures combat game first and foremost with everything else being an afterthought, and most modern-day adventures I've run and played in are ones where combat is only one part and exploration, diplomacy/interaction and research/information gathering are equally important (if not moreso than combat). [/QUOTE]
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