D&D 4E 4E spell turning, counterspell, or similar

[Nichwee]

Wizard of the spiral tower PP has an ability called "shape the dream" which makes it so an attack that targets your will is considered to have not happened (though still expended).

ARe you sure the attack the monster used is expended? The power says it is as though the monster chose to do nothing with its turn = no power expended as I read it and anyone else hit by the ability is also saved by StD. (Though I like your version more as I am the one playing the WotST).

I alsways found StD a bit odd in that it does wind things back more generally than normal for an II. Normally they effect whether you got hit/effectted. StD makes the entire action rewind no matter how many people it already effectted.

 

[DracoSuave]

ARe you sure the attack the monster used is expended?

Interrupts that invalidate powers expend the powers they invalidate. They are considered used. See Immediate Interrupts in your friendly neighborhood PHB.

 

[Nichwee]

Interrupts that invalidate powers expend the powers they invalidate. They are considered used. See Immediate Interrupts in your friendly neighborhood PHB.

True but this doesn't invalidate exactly. It specifically states the effect is as though the monster had chosen to do nothing, not as though it missed everyone. "Doing nothing" wouldn't expend anything imo, but as I said I am all for the idea it does expend as it just makes my power more funky

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

A few general responses and clarifications.

I've seen a whole bunch of immediate interrupt abilities which do various things to mitigate an attack. Some increase your defense, some move you out of range, some retarget the attack.

What I have not seen is any power that negates the attack entirely; just make it so it isn't happening any more. This is one effect I am interested in.

The second effect I am looking for is a power that lets a PC use a monster power on a limited basis; either immediately upon activation, or later after storage.

These powers are obviously related (one might naturally follow from the other), but they are not the same. As it seems that they do not exist as I imagine them in 4E RAW, I shall retire to the House Rules board to ask for help designing the ability I want.

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gnfnrf

It just isn't feasible in 4e. What is a 'spell'? Monsters don't have power sources, so there is actually NO mechanical way in 4e to determine which monster powers are magical or not and no definition of what constitutes a spell except 'an arcane power' which is not something you can determine.

There is also already a perfectly good counterspell, Shield. The enemy attacks you with its power, you interrupt and gain 4 to your defense. Totally negating an enemy power seems a bit extreme, there really should be SOME sort of mechanical resolution of that and the way Shield does it seems perfectly reasonable.

The other issue with anti-magic is that it simply isn't very effective, tactically. You burn a spell slot to negate some power of an opponent. What have you really accomplished? Its not helping you win, its at best burning an immediate action to take away a standard action of an opponent. Beyond that its a wash. It just isn't that interesting and tactically savvy players will ignore such powers in most cases. Even if they don't the net result is a longer and less exciting battle.

As far as stealing other creatures powers nothing has been done about that AFAIK. Its a VERY difficult kind of mechanism to design in a workable way. First you still have the problem of 'what is a spell in 4e' which you can't cleanly resolve. Then there's the question of what said character does when there's nothing to steal. Finally any power of this type is likely to be devastatingly effective, or else trivially useless in every given situation. If the enemy has no one really strong power to steal its probably pretty useless, but if the enemy has some really strong power then it is suddenly winning the battle. Its hard to assign a tactical value to any such power. It also tends to get stronger against stronger enemies, unlike most powers.

This topic has had a lot of debate over on the WotC boards at times. You might want to take a look over on the home brew forum there too.

 

[MrMyth]

The Dragonborn Sorcerer in our group has Countering Breath, which I believe is a utility from a Paragon Path. It is an encounter, Immediate Interrupt, when an enemy uses an area or close attack that deals damage of the same type as his breath weapon - he gets to respond with a blast 3 that negates the power in that area (as well as where he is standing). It is rather frustratingly strong, largely because his Epic Destiny let's his breath deal damage of different types (acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder), so he can counter pretty much any elemental attack once a fight.

In any case, however, this does sound like an example of the kind of 'complete counter' that gnfnrf is looking for.

The Nullifying Ring (level 30 item) has a daily power that boosts defenses vs an attack or, if you have hit a milestone, simply makes it automatically miss.

The Godhunter Epic Destiny at level 30 let's you, once per day, treat an attack that hits you as a miss. (Provided it comes from a higher level creature.)

I think such effects certainly can exist in 4E. I've looked at designing a 4E version of a Sarkrith (anti-magic lizard dudes), and having it absorb or negate attacks with the arcane keyword.

The thing is, such effects are somewhat against the 4E philosophy - you don't want anyone completely shut out of a fight. I'd probably only use such dudes in an encounter where there is other stuff for the arcane casters to do. But the ability itself can be designed - you just need to be careful not to make it too strong.

That is one reason why standard countering magic doesn't really show up - why you only see auto-miss stuff at level 30. Such things are really powerful. It can be tactically interesting, to hand out counters like this and let your players try and plan ahead to use them at the right time - but it can also turn into a 'bidding war' where you have to keep raising the stakes to overcome a party that has the right counter for every condition and attack. Which isn't to say it can't be done - one just needs to be careful how they go about it.

 

[gnfnrf]

To those of you that care, my post about the item I am designing is up in the house rules forum.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...ll-spell-storing-item-design.html#post5219693

Thank you for your responses here.

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gnfnrf