4E, the Grind and Why I Play

[AnthonyRoberson]

I normally post my 'ranty' thoughts about D&D on my blog, but I have been warned that if I put up any more posts that could be considered '4E Bashing' that I will probably get tossed off the RPG Bloggers network. I don't want that to happen and so you good people get to enjoy them here...

EDIT: I have been informed by the moderator of the network that this is untrue. I formally withdraw this statement. I am happy to be part of the RPG Bloggers network and I will strive to continue to contribute positively to it.

First of all, let me stress the fact that I LOVE D&D. I have been playing the game actively since 1981. I played 1st Edition AD&D all the way through 3.5 D&D. I still have a circle of 35+ year old friends that I try to play with as much as I can. After having a look at the leaked PDF of the 4E Player's Handbook, I grabbed the 4E books as soon as they were released.

I ran several playtest games of 4E, including a couple at Games Plus in Mount Prospect, IL. After my second or third game, several patterns started to emerge. First, all the classes basically functioned the same. Pick a power. Use a power. Second, from about 9th level on, encounters took FOREVER. Now this was also somewhat of a problem in high level 3.5 games, but I didn't experience it until much higher level.

I realize that I can play other games, including Pathfinder and older editions of D&D. However, I really want to support the current edition of D&D. I could also houserule the current edition I suppose. It saddens me though that for the first time in over 25 years, I find the current edition of D&D unplayable. This really sucks. To make matters worse, I am a voracious consumer of PDFs and WotC's recent actions have not set well with me.

I will cut this little screed short now. I hope you can forgive a doddering old gamer his grouchy complaining. Now I just need to find that old pink D20...

 

[Verys Arkon]

You millage varies.

 

[vagabundo]

Things I've found:

- 4e mechanics are not radically different than 3e, in fact you will be lured, at first, by the similar naming of things and believe you understand the game. However, there is a radical shift in perspective needed and this included how you run the game and how you look at what certain, possibly familiar, mechanic represent.

- It took me 4 months of regular gaming to get comfortable with 4e, but our fun curve has be steadily increasing and I have not looked back.

- Think more about the combat encounters as an organic whole; think terrain, monster powers, hazards, traps, in-combat skill challenges. Embrace the flexibility that 4e allows and do fun stuff.

- I generally only get around two hours of playtime a week. I run exploration, small (mini-less) encounters and some RP for about an hour or more and then usually have a nice juicy climatic combat encounter on the board. I usually mix things up a little and experiment with the rules as best I can, but even on bad day I can run two or three combat heavy encounters per two hours.


Also, I would run play-tests games at 1st-3rd level. The PC's are plenty bad-ass at those levels and, unless everyone is experienced in 4e, it can be a bit overwhelming to start at a higher level.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I would really like someone to catch some of that grind and post a picture of it. It never shows up in our games, but i tell my group about threads like these and they really would like to know how it looks.

 

[Storminator]

I would really like someone to catch some of that grind and post a picture of it. It never shows up in our games, but i tell my group about threads like these and they really would like to know how it looks.

One of my fellow players remarked last session about how different the sessions of different groups can be.

PS

 

[ExploderWizard]

One of my fellow players remarked last session about how different the sessions of different groups can be.

PS

Its true, even with the same edition/same adventure. I remember the thread about the scenario from the recent gameday and how much different the experiences were from group to group.

 

[Agamon]

To the OPs two points:

One could say D&D has always been, pick an attack, make an attack. The structure the the attack has changed with nearly every edition, but, in my opinion, a rose by any other name, yadda, yadda.

Also, I'm running a conversion of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft as a 4e game that started at 11th level. We've had one fight in the over a dozen so far that I'd consider drawn out. Granted, I like snappier fights and have decided to reduce moster hp to 3/4 across the board, but that's a simple fix if you think the game is too grindy.

Just my own experinces, not sure how valid they are with anyone else's group.

 

[DarkMasterBR]

To be honest, I've been more than once frustrated with the homogeneity of the classes enough to just "quit" 4e and get my 3.5 books again and play it. But there are so many things 4e did right, with save or dies, simplification of rules, fast combats (which you don't experience, but I have), that I just go back to 4e and swallow the classe's blandness. Still, there's hope. With each supplement, WotC seems to go one step further in creating whacky and different powers. It's going a bit slow for my tastes, but it's going towards a good path, IMO.

 

[timbannock]

Supporting 4e should be pretty easy, if houseruling is your thing. A lot of the subsystems are more "independent" than in 3e, so tooling around with them is easier. And because monster design =/= character design, it's pretty simple to adjust for these changes without having to fool with the other side, or better yet, changing the monsters doesn't have to affect your Player's character sheets at all.

What specifically do you want to house rule?

- The Grind: there's tons and tons of threads on this. Really, there's a lot of easy fixes for this subject. Need some links or ideas, let me know.

- Class Same-ness: this might be harder to fix, but having DDI gives you all the options from the splats to use without sinking the cash into the books, and there's a lot of new options coming out, as DarkMasterBR points out. You could also look at tweaking how powers work, fundamentally: instead of at-will/encounter/daily, work out a system using Milestones, or Action Points. Plenty of folks have already done so. Recharging with Action Points is pretty popular, it sounds like. I'm not sure I understand the point of the Class sameness argument though, so please expand upon that if you don't mind...I'm actually interested in hearing opinions on this.

You didn't address anything else specifically, so what else is eating at your liking the new edition?

 

[Storminator]

To be honest, I've been more than once frustrated with the homogeneity of the classes enough to just "quit" 4e and get my 3.5 books again and play it. But there are so many things 4e did right, with save or dies, simplification of rules, fast combats (which you don't experience, but I have), that I just go back to 4e and swallow the classes blandness. Still, there's hope. With each supplement, WotC seems to go one step further in creating whacky and different powers. It's going a bit slow for my tastes, but it's going towards a good path, IMO.

To be honest, I haven't seen this at all. None of our PCs seem to play the same at all. The idea that we could just pull out the fighter and plug in a warlock and not notice the difference is completely alien to me. Even with role, my cleric plays completely differently from the warlord. We can both heal as a minor action, but that's about the limit of the similarity.

Sure we're all choosing a power and applying it, but every power is so different that the actual choosing becomes unique to the PC, and the effect does as well.

PS