• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

4e = the Titanic? and other insanity or irony

freebfrost

Explorer
We didn't.

No, really, we didn't. My reading of the posts on this board says you've got a completely false premise here.
Actually, you did.

It's a classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees. You are here every day, reading the forums, so your perspective is slightly skewed. I log in maybe 3-4 times a year at this point, and the sole reason I am here today is because a fellow gamer sent me Ampersand article to read.

Yes, every time I come here I see a *few* posts about the "death of 4E/WotC/Profion," but today reads like a panic is in progress. And understandably so, as WotC has made some major announcements without explaining their business rationale behind them. Which is entirely business as usual for any company. Only time will tell what these changes mean, but I see what prompted Azgulor's original post, and there is a panic going on today because of these announcements.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Nifft

Penguin Herder
That is nothing. Just watch the reason for the change in the stock market each day.
I'm going to ignore the parts of your post that make sense -- which is most of it -- because I can't inflate my ego by mocking them.

Idyl speculation
"Idyl" speculation sounds far too peaceful. How about some idol speculation! Now there's a typo I can blaspheme to.

Cheers, -- N
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Actually, you did.

No, really, we didn't.

Yes, every time I come here I see a *few* posts about the "death of 4E/WotC/Profion," but today reads like a panic is in progress.

I wasn't referring to just the day-to-day low-level noise of worry and griping. We have a panic in progress every time WotC makes an announcement. It is like a reflex arc.
 

Stormonu

Legend
What we're seeing on WotC's side is a restructuring, not "abandon ship". If that had been the case, we'd have seen everyone on the R&D staff being canned with December layoffs.

As a corporation, WotC is working on a timeline based on events 6 months to a year ago; it just generally takes that long from seeing the writing on the wall to doing something about it - it all starts with committees, focus groups and sales reports, after all. I think we've all known the DDM line was circling the drain and they prepping changes for DDI (we saw part of that lead in with the new CB and beta of the VTT). (The drop of a few books was a bit of a surprise to me, though).

We'll probably see more shake-ups around June, after the top folks have had time to review and hem and haw over what happened around Christmas time (and how Essentials was received). That'll be something more to watch closer, I think.
 


WHW4

First Post
I wasn't referring to just the day-to-day low-level noise of worry and griping. We have a panic in progress every time WotC makes an announcement. It is like a reflex arc.


What if the reason for that backlash is that WotC's announcements are, in actuality, seen as bad moves by most of the vocal community? I never see threads on here decrying the latest Paizo blurb, or that Green Ronin is shooting itself in the foot. What if most people genuinely don't like what WotC is doing?

For myself, I kept hoping (and part of me still does) that the shift towards this seeming "shiny new D&D with extra bits and accessories" was temporary. The latest announcement kind of lined up the final nail in the coffin for me (with regards to purchasing any of this material). I feel like I'm waiting for WotC to start hammering any day now.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
Oh they took that game of Gary's and they poured the money through,
They thought they had a license where the gamers never lose,
But when fourth ed was finished, that grand ol' game went down,
It was sad when that great game went down (hee haw!)

It was sad, it was sad, it was sad, sad, sad,
Sad when the great game went down (to the bottom of the...)
Brothers, husbands, wives,
Little children lost their dice,
It was sad when the great game went down....

Somehow the title of this thread spawned spontaneous filk.... :confused:

The Auld Grump
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I wasn't referring to just the day-to-day low-level noise of worry and griping. We have a panic in progress every time WotC makes an announcement. It is like a reflex arc.

This strikes me as being a very disingenuous way of looking at people's reactions to WotC over the last few years.

Businesses, by their very nature, don't generally make statements of fact regarding their corporate health and viability; they tend to talk in marketing and PR. Now, there are good reasons for this, but it means that people hearing these messages will guess, interpret, and speculate about what the actual state of the company is.

And over the last several years, there's been some real cause for concern.

Businesses don't die instantly, save for the rare catastrophic incident. Most expire over years of losing money, often while making rapid changes and shifting plans in hope of drumming up new revenue to avert the spiral they've fallen into. Looking back at the state of WotC over the last few years, it's not hard to wonder if they've started into that kind of spiral.

When they fail to meet stated project goals, that's a cause for concern.

When the president of the company is replaced, that's a cause for concern.

When they lay people off with semi-regularity, that's a cause for concern.

When they cancel multiple products at once, as well as entire product lines, that's a cause for concern.

Now there may be good reasons for why all of these have happened which don't impact WotC's health at all. We don't know; but because we don't know, we speculate to try and get a better understanding of what's going on.

Given that, and given that it honestly does seem like most of the news about WotC - rather than the news they themselves are releasing - seems to be bad, it's completely understandable that people are seeing them falling into that spiral that dying companies go into.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
What if the reason for that backlash is that WotC's announcements are, in actuality, seen as bad moves by most of the vocal community?

Well, the OP asked how we got to this sort of discussion suddenly. All I'm saying is that it has by no means been sudden, and that in fact this sort of talk as been going on for years. It isn't even specific to 4e. We had much the same back in the 3e days, too.

But, to answer your question, let me restate it slightly:

What if the reason for that backlash is that a relatively small number of people who don't have any actual business information (like budgets, or sales numbers) feel like stating opinions on business?

I never see threads on here decrying the latest Paizo blurb, or that Green Ronin is shooting itself in the foot. What if most people genuinely don't like what WotC is doing?

Well, before you come to conclusions, you have to subtract the noise due to bias. The "800 lb gorilla" of gaming has had detractors since back when it was TSR. People have been beating on it forever, and not always for good reason. Paizo is the small guy, the underdog, and we always love underdogs.

I would not go anywhere near the claim that "most people genuinely don't like what WotC is doing". I don't feel the posts on this board come anywhere near being data to suggest that as a true statement. No statistician worth the name would think we comprised a representative sample of the market.
 


Remove ads

Top