4E to Pathfinder - what is it like? What do you miss? Pleasant surprises?

[GregoryOatmeal]

If I were to compare it to any CRPG it would be Final Fantasy Tactics - which I enjoyed a good deal more than the little that I played of WoW, let me assure you.

That's probably more accurate. Any time 4E gets compared to a CRPG the underlying commentary is that roleplaying isn't allowed. I think it's pretty obvious how I feel about that accusation.

And given that I am currently running (and thoroughly enjoying) a tabletop game based on Fallout 3, I would be more than a bit of a hypocrite to complain about similarities to computer games, eh?

So...this is a tangent but...dude, what system are you running? Everyone I know that's played those games has wanted to turn it into a tabletop RPG.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

I would be more than a bit of a hypocrite to complain about similarities to computer games

To be clear I'm not talking about you or all the PF players...I'm one of em. There's just a vocal minority that keep comparing 4E to WOW or some kind of non-roleplaying game.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

That's probably more accurate. Any time 4E gets compared to a CRPG the underlying commentary is that roleplaying isn't allowed. I think it's pretty obvious how I feel about that accusation.

Comparing the combat system to turn based CRPGs seems fair, but I agree otherwise. But then I feel the same when comparing any combat system to CRPGs - combat, at its basics, is what computers do best for CRPGs.

So...this is a tangent but...dude, what system are you running? Everyone I know that's played those games has wanted to turn it into a tabletop RPG.

Spycraft 2.0. If you go to the Crafty Games site I have a thread there that I started over two years ago.

In the Wiki they have an area titled War Never Changes.

One of the main reasons that I use Spycraft is the way that the system scales NPCs and critters - I can do a sandbox, and not care if they get to Gibtown (Gibsonton, Florida) at level six or twelve.

Right now the team is in Gibtown dealing with a sinister carnival known as The Freak Show. (Actually, not bad people - there is a critter very much akin to the Master in the older Fallout games, but what he wants is to get the Circus rolling before he dies. And he knows exactly when he is going to die. The Ringmaster as he is called also serves as The Thing in the Jar for the freak show.)

I also have a thread on the Vault Underground FO3 site, and on the World Works forums. It has become my most terrain heavy campaign, since I use World Works to create vaults and ruins.

I use Pig Iron miniatures for the Brotherhood, plastic zombies and ghouls for Feral ghouls, and plan to get some Brother Vinni models for Enclave. Lots more notes on minis in the world Works thread.

But, just because I find it amusing -

Ron Perlman as a Super-Mutant Behemoth? (With the Freakshow.)

The only problem with using this as a Verti-Bird is that I need to hide the remote....

The Auld Grump

 

[Saint Mac]

Thanks again, Saint Mac - you're my Pathfinder guru (or saint? ;-).

You are very welcome! LOL! You're too kind. I'm Methodist so the chance of the Catholic church declaring me a saint is a bit on the thin side I'm sooo far from knowing all Pathfinder, in fact, really new to it. Maybe we could think of this as an 8th grader asking a freshman what HS is like. I bet in no time, I will be asking you for help and advice. The others on this thread have great FYIs, glad you started it.

I think what I'm going to do is this: read through the Beginner's Box, play the solo adventure. Then I'm going to make a couple characters, and read through core a bit (I already own core, beginner's box, gamemastery guide, and a bunch of setting stuff). I'll probably purchase a few first modules of appealing Adventure Paths and read through them, if only for ideas.

Good idea!

No, I'm not in a hurry - I probably wouldn't start DMing it until about the time the Runelords book comes out, so that might be a good idea (although my sense is that it isn't too difficult to run Pathfinder characters in a 3.5 adventure?). Serpent's Skull and Legacy of Fire also sound appealing to me, so I might try one of those (although the reviews of SS later on aren't so great, but the "find the lost city in the jungle" theme was similar to what I had planned).

Runelords was only a suggestion, but I think its a good place to start.

I also do own the first book of Kingmaker but haven't read it. It sounds like a lot of fun, but I'll be wary of starting with it. Maybe after running the short adventure in the Beginner's Box?

I'll come back to this thread throughout the process and re-read advice given, maybe occasionally post questions.

When you are feeling ready for Kingmaker, go to d20 radio and listen to the Chronicles Pathfinder. They have great advice for GMs on this. Azmeth, Steel_Wind, and the rest are a fantastic resource with their podcast.

Either way, post what you see and think, would like to hear it.

Enjoy!

 

[Saint Mac]

If there was one thing I'd love to see more of in Pathfinder, it would be more opportunities for the cleric to be able to do an offensive action AND heal in a turn. Not saying to retcon the cure wounds spells necessarily, but maybe some lesser healing spells or penalty-removing spells that could be cast as swift actions so that the cleric didn't feel like he was "wasting" his action by healing. I know it's a bone of contention though.

That's probably the biggest thing from 4E I 'miss' when playing PF. Any other complains are fairly minor.

I think that's fair to say. Hmmmmm, maybe a pool a free action/swift minor heal per level? Just thinking out loud.

 

[Saint Mac]

The first thing that got changed was the 1-2-1-2 diagonal movement rule. 1-1-1-1 is just easier to track and the minor advantage it gives is meaningless if everybody has it imo.

The movement rules slow down early player games to me. I do the 1-1-1-1 thing personally.

I hate it when a game starts looking like a freakin' game of chess. Like a ranger shooting from 200ft. Call me lazy, but I'm not going to count out 40 freakin squares. I have that archer, or whatever, set a bit back and write 200 next to the mini on the map. Done and done. Wait a tic! I AM lazy! lol

 

[Saint Mac]

My observations from starting Pathfinder a few weeks ago after two years of 4E.

1. Character creation takes longer but is more fun. You really feel like you're customising your character in PF.

Imho, I think its the skills and feats.

2. Damn, I missed spells. I love them!

I'm sure 4E will catch up eventually since its not really that old, but I'm with ya. I can spend hours just toying with spell combos when building a wiz.

3. 15-minute workday more prevalent in PF due to wizards.

4. Combats definitely seem less mobile, but I can't figure out why.

Think its the 'speed' of 4E? I mean they did focus on trying to speed combat up. I also feel that the double count diagnal movement throws people.

5. Stuff people do makes sense. No random "I hit this guy and that guy over there becomes immobile for no apparent reason".

This bugged me too.

6. Clerics are more forced to be healer-bots than in 4E. I think this is due to the action/round structure where the cleric is forced to use his standard action healing.

Totally agree. As I wrote above, maybe give your Cleric a free minor heal as a swift or something?

9. The most important thing - I think I prefer the 3.5 era atmosphere of a game to the 4E era. But I can't pinpoint what than means, exactly.

I wish I could to. Some of it, for me, is that when I played 4E at the time, the places didn't feel localized in a world. APs like Kingmaker, you know much more of the suroundings because of the maps and write-ups that are in that book. Maybe that's it for me.

Overall, I'm enjoying it immensely. I haven't tried higher levels yet, and I remember them being a bear in 3.5.

Have only gone up to 12 in Path. With Path's 'no dead levels', it feels heafty. I've personally like playing a character up to 10, but that's not really a D&D vs Path thing, my bad.

 

[blargney the second]

After recently completing our 3-year 4e campaign, we're coming up on 20 sessions of our E6 Pathfinder game in Dark Sun. LOVE IT. We've imported a couple of 4e-isms that make our lives easier, such as the lovely standard action charge rule. Apparently, we're also doing concealment as a flat d20 penalty.

It's been a fun ride so far, and I look forward to each session even more as time goes by.
-blarg

 

[Voadam]

I played in a paragon 4e game that eventually switched to pathfinder. I was playing a ranger multiclassed paragon wizard who in pathfinder was a ranger wizard eldritch knight.

I missed having effective at will blasting spells in Pathfinder. I was reminded of my dislike of vancian resource management.

I prefer the simplicity of 4e skills over the fiddly numbers of 3e/PF skills.

The rogue went way down in effectiveness, his lack of BAB really hurt and his two weapon attacks became a flurry of misses more often than not. Even with me providing support spells like improved invisibility to him.

I went from a fairly unoptimized 4e build to a powerhouse in both melee combat, combat casting, and utility magic.

The 4e fighter switched to playing our NPC bard who became a mystic theurge in Pathfinder.

The combat/caster divide of high level became fairly apparent.

Not having gp costs to track on rituals meant I cast noncombat spells a lot more in PF.

Pathfinder still has a bunch of save or suck spells at most levels. I got hit by a petrification in the first action of our first PF combat and rolled a 2 on my save and was out for the whole combat. The mystic theurge abused mind jar pretty heavily.

Arcane Strike is a fun feat.

In 4e magics were kept to a minimum and shopping around was generally for neat properties and picking out one or two daily abilities. In Pathfinder there were a ton of neat minor items to pick up plus the big six, etc.

 

[Voadam]

When I DM'd pathfinder I had a huge reserve of stuff to draw on, from the Pathfinder SRD to all my d20 books of various sorts. I'm comfortable with d20 in general and was fine adding in campaign rule options from Unearthed Arcana, Iron Heroes, and house rules plus using material from Pathfinder, 3.5, 3.0 and other d20 stuff.

For DM prep I used modules and monsters from various sourcebooks straight out of the books and ran with them. The intercompatibility of d20 stuff is great, most stuff can be used as is in PF, just giving monsters a CMB/CMD if needed.

Oh and the orcs in pathfinder with their standard actions at negative hp allowed for flavorful WFRP style orks who kept swinging after getting their heads cut off. It was fantastic.