D&D 4E 4e virgin looking for answers

[Reverend47]

I've been playing D&D and at least a dozen other systems for many years now but my group has been highly reluctant to try out 4e. We just got a new player in who has nearly every major supplement for 4e as well as the core books which he inherited from a sibling who died. He himself has only played a few sessions. I'm the standard GM for our group and I have never played 4e but I'm going to be GMing it. I've been reading through the books and trying to get an idea. We're going to be running a module and later today a few friends are going to come over and we're going to play Keep on the Shadowfell (?) to get a handle on the rules. I have quite a few questions and was hoping some of the more experianced types here could give me a hand.

1) Is there any method of changing your class as the game goes on? I know that the multiclassing in the game is about ability replacement, but is there any way to actually change your class? Let's say a fighter becomes more religous and wants to become a cleric? Is there any way to do so?

2) My group loves to dual wield, from what I get dual wielding requires powers that use both weapons. What classes have these and what books are they in?

3) One of my players has been wanting to play a grappler in D&D since time began. With 3.x I threatened to beat his skull in with the spell compendium if he tried it. Is grappling more streamlined and effective (can't find rules on it)

(there will probably be more)

 

[renau1g]

I've been playing D&D and at least a dozen other systems for many years now but my group has been highly reluctant to try out 4e. We just got a new player in who has nearly every major supplement for 4e as well as the core books which he inherited from a sibling who died. He himself has only played a few sessions. I'm the standard GM for our group and I have never played 4e but I'm going to be GMing it. I've been reading through the books and trying to get an idea. We're going to be running a module and later today a few friends are going to come over and we're going to play Keep on the Shadowfell (?) to get a handle on the rules. I have quite a few questions and was hoping some of the more experianced types here could give me a hand.

1) Is there any method of changing your class as the game goes on? I know that the multiclassing in the game is about ability replacement, but is there any way to actually change your class? Let's say a fighter becomes more religous and wants to become a cleric? Is there any way to do so?

2) My group loves to dual wield, from what I get dual wielding requires powers that use both weapons. What classes have these and what books are they in?

3) One of my players has been wanting to play a grappler in D&D since time began. With 3.x I threatened to beat his skull in with the spell compendium if he tried it. Is grappling more streamlined and effective (can't find rules on it)

(there will probably be more)

1) There's Paragon Multiclassing, essentially trading your Paragon Path for additional flexibility (like your aforementioned Fighter to Cleric), but nothing to change your class (although I'm unaware of anything in prior editions that did that either)

2) Well, anyone can dual wield with the Two Weapon Fighting feat, which grants a +1 damage on attacks. The classes that utilize it heavily though are the melee ranger from PHB1 and the Tempest fighter from Martial Power 1. Note, there's even a feat for arcane casters to dual wield implements (Dual Implement Spellcaster - from Arcane Power)

3) Grappling is much different in 4e. There are no grapple rules. You can Grab an enemy (Player's Handbook, page(s) 290). If he wants to be a grappler 4e does have an awesome solution to it. It's called the Brawling Fighter from Martial Power 2. There are no complicated rules like in 3e. One of its at-will powers is called Grappling Strike and on a hit you Grab the enemy as defined in the PHB (meaning he's not going anywhere).

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Welcome to ENWorld!

1) Is there any method of changing your class as the game goes on? I know that the multiclassing in the game is about ability replacement, but is there any way to actually change your class? Let's say a fighter becomes more religous and wants to become a cleric? Is there any way to do so?

There's no official rule for doing so. I'd suggest to just rebuild the character. Fighter to Cleric can actually work without reassigning ability scores, as both classes can make good use of Strength and Wisdom.

2) My group loves to dual wield, from what I get dual wielding requires powers that use both weapons. What classes have these and what books are they in?

Ranger in the Player's Handbook, Fighter in Martial Power, Barbarian in Primal Power, Scout in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms.

3) One of my players has been wanting to play a grappler in D&D since time began. With 3.x I threatened to beat his skull in with the spell compendium if he tried it. Is grappling more streamlined and effective (can't find rules on it)

It's streamlined and effective IMO, there's even a fighter build that uses it extensively (Martial Power 2).

4) Is there any take 20/take 10 style rule?

Yes, IIRC if the character is not in any stressful situation, he can take 10 on skill checks.

 

[Reverend47]

Thank you.

1) So with the above example, my fighter could only become a bit more clericy via multiclassing, eventually picking up a cleric paragon tree even, but could not ever gain a level in cleric?

2) Is there any take 10/20 rule?

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

2) Is there any take 10/20 rule?

Page 179 of the Player's Handbook.

 

[Reverend47]

Okay then. I'll just simply work with it on a case by case basis.

I have yet to see anything of this nature, but is there anything along the lines of explosive runes? It's always been a favorite of my party.

 

[the Jester]

1) So with the above example, my fighter could only become a bit more clericy via multiclassing, eventually picking up a cleric paragon tree even, but could not ever gain a level in cleric?

Multiclassing is the equivalent of adding a cleric level to your class.

It sounded earlier like you wanted a mechanism to actually stop being a fighter and switch over wholesale to cleric- no version of D&D has offered this. The closest would be dual classing in 1e, where (f'rexample) a 4th level fighter becomes a 1st level cleric but can't use any fighter stuff until his cleric level reaches 5. 4e offers retraining, but not of your class. Some dms allow complete pc rebuilds though, but it's a matter of taste and playstyle preference.

PH3 also has rules for "hybrid characters", which are more like traditional 1e/2e multiclassing (while 4e's feat-based multiclassing resembles 3e's "dabble in a level or two of another class" style of multiclassing). A hybrid character loses some class features, but gets access to the powers from both of its classes. However, it has to split these roughly 50/50- if you have two encounter powers, one much be from each class and so forth.

 

[mneme]

Explosive runes: Well, that spell itself isn't in 4e--it doesn't quite fit the game's economy. If you wanted to houserule it back in, I'd look at the Alchemical Items from Aventurer's Vault. Something like this (based on Alchemist's Fire):
Explosive Runes
Level 6 Common

When read, these runes explode, damaging anyone nearby.

Price: 75 gp
Alchemical Item Trap

Reaction (Consumable * Fire): When looked at by an unaware, literate character, these runes explose if read -- make a +9 vs. Will attack against the triggering character; if it hits, they have read the runes; if not, they are unaware of this attack. A character that deliberately reads the runes automatically triggers the trap.
Power (Consumable * Fire): When Triggered. Make an attack: Close burst 1 centered on the runes; +9 vs. Reflex; on a hit, deal 2d6 fire damage; on a miss, deal half damage. The creature triggering the runes is automatically hit by them.

Arcana

DC 15: The character spots the runes and provides a +2 bonus to Thievery or Arcana checks made to disable it.

Actually, if you don't want to houserule an alchemical item into existence, there -is- explosive runes in 4e; it's just not a player resource (and appears in a dungeon as a trap -- FR1 Tower of Spellgard). If your players encountered it, a DC 20 Arcana check would let them disable the runes while leaving them active, letting them (with another DC 20 check) reanable them to spring them on an unsuspecting foe. It's a level 2 trap, though (whereas alchemist's Fire is a level 6/11/16/21/26 formula), so the to-hit is lower.

 

[Reverend47]

What I'm thinking is more about an organic method of character development. At level 1 you decide to be a fighter. You have your character backstory, all that jazz, but you don't have a build in mind. Somewhere around level 6 your character has a fight in a temple of Tymora and all his allies are unconscious, he is the only one left against a servant of bane who the party is after. He has 1 hp and he manages to get lucky and pulls of a critical hit, dropping the servant of bane from half health to the ground. He attributes it to Tymora and takes up her worship and wants to become a cleric of Tymora and focus on that entirely as opposed to his training as a fighter. In 3.x the next time he leveled up he would take a level of cleric and continue on that way, possibly taking a prestige class eventually that fit it but probably never taking a level of fighter again. He views himself as a cleric now, even though he still has his fighter training.

Is there any equivalent to that type of mid-game choice available in 4e? Not retroactive, where he gives up his fighter levels and boom, he's a level 6 cleric, but where he could put his fighter training aside-while retaining it, but focus on becoming a cleric instead.

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Is there any equivalent to that type of mid-game choice available in 4e? Not retroactive, where he gives up his fighter levels and boom, he's a level 6 cleric, but where he could put his fighter training aside-while retaining it, but focus on becoming a cleric instead.

As renau1g mentioned, there's Paragon Multiclassing at level 11. There are three feats you need to have to make use of that option, namely Novice Power, Acolyte Power and Adept Power (all in the Player's Handbook). These feats allow you to swap the utility, encounter and daily powers of your class with those of your multiclass. The complete rules are on page 209 of the Player's Handbook.

It's doable, but it's a heavy feat investment and needs to planned for. There's a common conception that Paragon Multiclassing is too expensive for the benefits it offers.