D&D 4E 4E WotC Tools dead?

[dave2008]

The tactical powers based system that took half an hour to an hour to run a battle. Took a similar amount of time to the D&D minis game which was around at the time.

It was a rhetorical question. My point was: that is not how it played for us. We could get through combat in less than 30min or 4-5 hours (that was our longest battle I believe). I had one group that was tactically inept and rarely if ever selected powers that synergized, and it was still a blast! There is no one way to play 4e, just like there is no one way to play any other version of D&D.

 

[Zardnaar]

It was a rhetorical question. My point was: that is not how it played for us. We could get through combat in less than 30min or 4-5 hours (that was our longest battle I believe). I had one group that was tactically inept and rarely if ever selected powers that synergized, and it was still a blast! There is no one way to play 4e, just like there is no one way to play any other version of D&D.

Maybe but you can't get away form the 4E powers system even if you play essentials so if you don't like it you're not going to like the edition. Is that a fair statement?

 

[dave2008]

Maybe but you can't get away form the 4E powers system even if you play essentials so if you don't like it you're not going to like the edition. Is that a fair statement?

No, we played 4e without powers too. We only did it for one adventure (I was trying to teach my group how to improvise), but it total worked. Some of the group liked it and some did not, but it worked. If you use DMG 42 you could pretty much improvise the entire thing!

EDIT: we also eventually got rid of the AEDU structure and made everything cost surges.

 

[Zardnaar]

No, we played 4e without powers too. We only did it for one adventure (I was trying to teach my group how to improvise), but it total worked. Some of the group liked it and some did not, but it worked. If you use DMG 42 you could pretty much improvise the entire thing!

EDIT: we also eventually got rid of the AEDU structure and made everything cost surges.

That is getting into the realms of house rules by an experienced player though. The average gamer isn't going to do that (I playtested the 4E combat rules with BECMI type classes, it worked well enough). If you don't like the powers though you're not going to like 4E is probably how its gonna go.

I'll try it another way. Lets say you really like 4E. 5E comes out and you don't like it because it doesn't give you what you want which is more 4E or a variant of 4E tweaked to improve/fix it.

Makes sense yes? If you don't like 5E you're not gonna hang around long enough to rewrite it odds are you'll play something else. 80% of the dislike towards 4E is probably mostly about chapter 4 in the 4E PHB. That is the stress/fracture point, the big kahuna, the point of no return. Its why there is no 5E Warlord, and why 5E is not 4.5.

 

[dave2008]

I'll try it another way. Lets say you really like 4E. 5E comes out and you don't like it because it doesn't give you what you want which is more 4E or a variant of 4E tweaked to improve/fix it.

Makes sense yes?

Sure, that's a definite a possibility.

If you don't like 5E you're not gonna hang around long enough to rewrite it odds are you'll play something else. 80% of the dislike towards 4E is probably mostly about chapter 4 in the 4E PHB. That is the stress/fracture point, the big kahuna, the point of no return. Its why there is no 5E Warlord, and why 5E is not 4.5.

I am not exactly following your argument. I think your making broad assumptions that I have no idea if they are close to the mark at all. The only thing I know is that they don't map onto my experience. Besides there at tons of 5e Warlords, more than there were in 4e - just not from WotC

 

[Zardnaar]

Sure, that's a definite a possibility.



I am not exactly following your argument. I think your making broad assumptions that I have no idea if they are close to the mark at all. The only thing I know is that they don't map onto my experience. Besides there at tons of 5e Warlords, more than there were in 4e - just not from WotC

Think of the reactions on the various WL thread, the lead up to 5E and when 4E landed (E= WoW etc). Most of the basically boil down to problems with the 4E power structure of which only elements of it were carried over to 5E.

Seems fairly obvious which the main problem is- chapter 4 in the 4E PHB.

 

[dave2008]

Think of the reactions on the various WL thread, the lead up to 5E and when 4E landed (E= WoW etc). Most of the basically boil down to problems with the 4E power structure of which only elements of it were carried over to 5E.

Seems fairly obvious which the main problem is- chapter 4 in the 4E PHB.

I think it was is less the power structure though and more how it was presented. As I mentioned up thread (at least I think it was this thread), if they had started with essentials and then moved to PHB classes later you wouldn't have as much of a problem. I think you could have eased the masses into the power structure and then brought on the AEDU versions. In fact, I think you can take the 4e power structure and make it look a lot like 5e if you want.

Also, to be honest, i heard as much belly aching about the fluff changes as anything else. I think if there had been no changes to the fluff and it started with essentials type classes it would have been much better received. But that is just my speculation.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think was is less the power structure though and more how it was presented. As I mentioned up thread (at least I think it was this thread), if they had started with essentials and then moved to PHB classes later you wouldn't have as much of a problem. I think you could have eased the masses into the power structure and then brought on the AEDU versions. In fact, I think you can take the 4e power structure and make it look a lot like 5e if you want.

Also, to be honest, i heard as much belly aching about the fluff changes as anything else. I think if there had been no changes to the fluff and it started with essentials type classes it would have been much better received. But that is just my speculation.

Better but not by much, people wanted a fixed 3.5 and that is what Paizo served up.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think was is less the power structure though and more how it was presented. As I mentioned up thread (at least I think it was this thread), if they had started with essentials and then moved to PHB classes later you wouldn't have as much of a problem. I think you could have eased the masses into the power structure and then brought on the AEDU versions. In fact, I think you can take the 4e power structure and make it look a lot like 5e if you want.

Also, to be honest, i heard as much belly aching about the fluff changes as anything else. I think if there had been no changes to the fluff and it started with essentials type classes it would have been much better received. But that is just my speculation.

The fact the powers looked like cards pushed ppl’s buttons, too, for some reason. Reformat the powers to look like Star Wars Saga Edition Powers, and people wouldn’t have had their eyes glaze over and decide it was all the same.

 

[dave2008]

Better but not by much, people wanted a fixed 3.5 and that is what Paizo served up.

Again, that is a broad assumption, and definitely not what I wanted.