D&D 4E 4e's Inorganic Loot System: Yay or Nay?

[Psychic Robot]

Well, at the risk of flaming, they dont really "drop" anything. Your breaking my verisimilitude by using MMO terms.

But I see your confusion now and I will try to give you an example from my own campaign.

I have an adventure path, for lack of a better term, laid out to get the PCs from 1st level to 3rd. As I was writing it I purposefully left out treasure because I wanted to use parcels but wanted to incorporate them into the path in a way that suited my story and my campaign.

So, with the first half written, with an XP budget that takes the group to just past 2nd level, I started puttign together treasure parcels and doling them out to the monsters and other areas within the part of the adventure I had written.

Based on the parcel tables and the suggestions in the DMG (which I do not have here at work) I had 6 items to place, + 2 healing pots + an amount of coinage.

I assembled that into one list of treasure and started placing treasure around the adventure. I did not necessarily keep items and coins from parcels together, I split, and combined and moved and removed to suit my tastes, but the total treasure haul when combined was my list generated by the parcel system.

One item was in a secret compartment the PCs did not find. So, I simply moved that item (since it was a weapon which would figure into their expected items of certain slots) into the next section of the adventure and added it to the treasure list I generated for the 2nd half. so that by the time they were 3rd level they will have the expected amount of treasure for their level. Or at least pretty close +/-, which is as far as I care to calculate.

One of the items was a suti of armor. I put this on a monster in one of the encoutners. Using the chart the monster did not derive any bonuses to his AC for the item, but he certainly got to use the encounter power the armor allowed and this made the PCs aware his armor was "special". And now the party Rogue wears the armor and is quite happy with it.

This is both an acceptable and reasonable response. My issue with it is two-fold:

1. Grumble-grumble-damn magic threshold-grumble, but that's for a new thread.

2. When someone dies, it is likely that he loses hold of anything that he was holding. Therefore, the scythe that he was using would likely clatter to the ground, thus being "dropped." (Nah, I'm just ing with you. The elite mob drops his equipment.)

 

[bardolph]

Whether versimilitude is overrated or not, I do think the parcel system does put a ding in it. That's because the treasure a monster has is not based on what the monster should reasonably have given its power and location, but on the level and make-up of the party that rousts it from its lair.

The parcel system also assumes that the party is facing encounters that are appropriate to the party's level. If the party is playing at under its own level, then scale the treasure down appropriately.

It's like monsters are all issued Schrodinger's Treasure in which its actual contents are not determinable until someone actually wins it.

Shrodinger's Treasure has been and will always be a problem in any RPG where gaining loot is a major part of the game. The parcel system neither helps nor hinders this.

What makes the Parcel system work is one simple fact: the DM still has to determine which parcels go where. This one fact alone refutes the entire notion that parcels somehow break "verisimilitude." If your parcels don't make sense, move them.

Bottom line is, the parcel system is a GUIDE, not a RULE. Do you want balanced treasure that's in line with level expectations? The parcel system solves this problem neatly and elegantly. Do you want to assign your own treasure? Then by all means, do it.

I don't see a problem here.

I have never, ever seen a random "treasure type" table produce better results than the parcel system.

 

[amysrevenge]

It's like monsters are all issued Schrodinger's Treasure in which its actual contents are not determinable until someone actually wins it.

Then again, the monsters themselves are also sort of "Schrodinger's Encounters", in that their toughness is set by the level of the party facing them.

To me, having PCs always face (mechanically) appropriate challenges is a similar break from reality to having their foes "drop" these parcel-style treasures.

 

[malacapricornis]

I suppose linearity and tailor made encounters and treasures don't bother me because in PnP the world only existsin regards to the players interactions in my view. No sense simulating a whole world behind the scenes that is never interacted with.

 

[eleran]

I suppose linearity and tailor made encounters and treasures don't bother me because in PnP the world only existsin regards to the players interactions in my view. No sense simulating a whole world behind the scenes that is never interacted with.

I agree with this...to a point. I will sometimes have a news item get to the PCs via something like a caravan arriving in town or some such. Usually as a throw away item just to provide the world with a little bit of gravitas. But I have to be careful because sometimes the news item might strike a chord and become a story thread I did not intend, but those sometimes turn out to be some of the more fun story threads.

 

[Telémakhos]

This is an observation rather than useful to anyone. My D&D groups going back to late 2e (prior to this the games I played in had more magic), that I have enjoyed have all been quite low magic. I even ran a Forgotten Realms game that was pretty low-magic (obviously it stopped being the Forgotten Realms for everyone but our gaming table at that point) and we have very exciting fights (most of the time) that have great excitement and balanced challenges that usually push us to our limits.

Magic items are truly rare and treasured items, even a +1 dagger is going to be appreciated if it no longer leaves us in awe when we are 8th and 9th level and have at least one cool per character (but again, at a different scale like a +2 flail with a bonus vs. undead, that is an amazing weapon in my group).

I guess my story is tied to the fact that I really like much of 4e for the streamlining but really bristle at some of the meta-game features (the MMO terminology resulted in my hating the new edition until I made some characters super quickly and spent my time with powers, etc.). So, I won't use parcels if I run 4e and minions will have 1 hp per level rather than 1 hp, etc. and the group will have fun and not feel cheated by the derth of magic, etc. Wish me luck for this weekend's playtesting (I am not the main DM who has been running in the same game world for 20 years).

I will make sure to post how things go and good luck to those that love, hate and are neutral toward parcels, assuming you have fun playing the game, we are all correct in our use of the rule books.

 

[Terwox]

But the monsters themselves are carrying magical power scythes (according to the idea behind magic threshold). The players are just supposed to ignore these and get their treasure parcels, though.

That isn't how the magic threshold system works.

The trident isn't magical, the sahaugin wielding it is magical. It is so magical that if it did pick up a +2 (or whatever) trident, it wouldn't be of any benefit. If it picked up a +3 (again, or whatever,) it would be sufficient enough to give an additional +1.

It's not a perfect solution, however, the DM doesn't need verisimilitude, the DM needs a set of numbers that will work that don't become broken when the monster is wielding the parcel as they are supposed to. If you'd like to make those parcels line up with the monsters, cool, it just isn't necessary.

Anyway, the MM also lists the standard equipment the monster has. The parcel system just isn't part of the loot.

More importantly -- how does 3E compare any better at all?? "Recommended wealth guidelines" are a bit lacking. And if you give monsters magic items and have them wield them, it throws off the CR much worse than the 4E magic threshold does. And 2E and 1E... heh.

 

[Xyl]

Fully misleading. However, to be fair popular culture and food marketers have redefined what organic and inorganic mean. While teaching chemistry, it can be quite annoying.

To be completely fair, the new definition of "organic" originated from sense "forming an integral part of the whole" rather than the chemistry sense.

 

[Spatula]

What makes the Parcel system work is one simple fact: the DM still has to determine which parcels go where. This one fact alone refutes the entire notion that parcels somehow break "verisimilitude." If your parcels don't make sense, move them.

I see a few comments in this thread where people talk about how parcels don't screw with versimilitude, without actually understanding what's being talked about. The issue raised by the OP (and in the past in similar discussions) was that the players always finding items perfectly tailored to their needs, and no other items, breaks some people's suspension of disbelief.

Anyway, the DMG system is a big help to new DMs I think. Encounter design depends on a baseline of player effectiveness, and magic items are a big part of that. With that in mind, the DMG method of handing out magic items encourages DMs and players to work together to make sure that everything the players find is worthwhile and contributes to the group's effectiveness. More experienced world-builder-type DMs can bend, break, and otherwise do whatever they want with the item handouts, the return on selling items, the return on disenchanting items, and so on. The game books however should first and foremost cover what's important to less experienced DMs.

 

[Wormwood]

The issue raised by the OP (and in the past in similar discussions) was that the players always finding items perfectly tailored to their needs, and no other items, breaks some people's suspension of disbelief.

And while I can appreciate that in the abstract, I don't see it in practice in either of the games I play.