D&D 4E 4E's math-- what am I missing?

[R_kajdi]

After my first read through the basic book set, two things became somewhat apparent:

1. As you go up in level, it looks like vs. AC attacks become quickly useless. AC scales at a per level basis for monsters, and to hit only scales at level/2. So by 30th level, you need to come up with an extra +15 to hit like you were at level one. Magic Items only can provide +6 to that, so you're still down +9, and even if you're considering your primary attribute that you advance at every attribute advancement, it's still only another +4. So you're adding 25% to the miss chance to wherever you were at level one by the time you top at 30th. So if you were hitting on 10 at level 1, the equivalent monster at level 30 will only be hit on a 15.

2. (Killed point two because I see that I missed the level/2 effect on defenses)

I must be missing something pretty simple, because by the way it looks, AC is meaningless at top levels since all smart people will be going against your other defenses. Are the game's basics supposed to change so dramatically as the game goes up in level?

 

[Blackeagle]

1. As you go up in level, it looks like vs. AC attacks become quickly useless. AC scales at a per level basis for monsters, and to hit on scales at level/2. So by 30th level, you need to come up with an extra +15 to hit like you were at level one. Magic Items only can provide +6 to that, so you're still down +9, and even if you're considering your primary attribute that you advance at every attribute advancement, it's still only another +4.

It seems like you've left out the AC bonus from improved materials.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Well, you get a proficiency bonus to attacks vs. AC, usually... that's +2 to +3. And looking through the MM statistics thread, AC is on average only three points higher than the Reflex defence.

Also, you get to-hit bonuses from your friendly leader in the group.

Cheers, LT.

 

[dervish]

The AC of monsters doesn't quite increase by 1 per level. That's why the monster advancement formula isn't very accurate outside a 5 level range or so. I actually believe that a character who puts all his stat increases in his main stat (rather likely) and obtains a +6 weapon by 30th level will have a slightly better chance to hit an equal level enemy as he did on 1st level- about 60-65%.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Actually, if you check the chart on pg 184 of the DMG, all MONSTERS have AC and defenses both scale with the monster's level. AC is 2 higher than other defenses, by default. And attacks scale at the same rate.

It's a fair question, though: what are the average defenses and attack bonuses for a level 30 character vs. a level 1 character?

 

[greyscale1]

1. I think you are overestimating the AC of monsters.

The AC of big T, a high armor level 30 solo, is only 43.

Dagger Rogue. 15(half level) + 4 (dagger with proficiency) + 6 (magic weapon) + 2 (combat advantage) + 6 (Dex score) = 33.

Bam, 50% to hit rate, and I am definitely missing probable feat choices, paragon abilities, debuffs on big T (which the rogue can do himself) and leader abilities.

You are right that the other defenses are easier to hit (though they get +1/2 level too). In Big T's case, fortitude is 49. 49! However, ref and will are in the 30s.

Now, big T is a solo, and a tough one, and the rogue i gave was equal level to him, so that should be an appropriate gauge.

 

[Nifft]

As you go up in level, it looks like vs. AC attacks become quickly useless. AC scales at a per level basis for monsters, and to hit only scales at level/2. So by 30th level, you need to come up with an extra +15 to hit like you were at level one. Magic Items only can provide +6 to that, so you're still down +9, and even if you're considering your primary attribute that you advance at every attribute advancement, it's still only another +4.

I must be missing something pretty simple, because by the way it looks, AC is meaningless at top levels since all smart people will be going against your other defenses. Are the game's basics supposed to change so dramatically as the game goes up in level?

Nope. You're supposed to have +4 (from stats), +6 (from weapon), a Paragon Path which may help (with rerolls or flat-out attack bonuses), and a Leader or Controller who gives you situational bonuses to make up the remaining of the 3-4 points. (But 3 points isn't really a whole new game, since you have more Encounter powers which give you more attacks, and your attacks hit harder.)

Also, note that crits matter more at high level: you get more thanks to your Epic weapon feat (which gives you crits on a 19-20), and they hurt more thanks to your weapon's extra +1d6/enhancement bonus (minimum).

Cheers, -- N

 

[charlesatan]

Here's the math:

At level 30, you should have the following bonuses to AC:

15 (1/2 your level)
6 (Magic Item Bonus)
5* or 14 (Elder Hide Armor or Godplate armor)
*Add Dex or Int Modifier (assuming your character uses either Dex or Int for their powers, that's a bonus of anywhere from +7 (if 16 was your 1st-level stat) or +9 (on a 20)).
1 (Feat bonus for armor if you take the feat)

So a 30th-level character's AC is anywhere from 45~46 AC (+6 Godplate Armor) or 43~46 AC (+6 Elder Hide Armor).

**Optional Shield Bonus anywhere from +1 to +3
*** Paragon Paths and Powers might increase this.

That matches the formula for monsters to have Attack vs AC = Level + 3~7

For Attack Bonuses:
+15 (1/2 your level)
+6 (Magic Item Bonus)
+2~+3 (Weapon Proficiency Bonus)
+7~+9 (Ability Score)
+1~+3 (Class/Paragon Path/Epic Destiny Bonus)
*+1 for conditional racial bonuses (i.e. Dragonborn's +1 on bloodied targets)

So at 30th-level, most characters have an attack bonus of +30 (on a minimum scale) to +37 (maximum scale) but a Fighter who starts out with Str 16 and uses a Blade Weapon (except Scimitars) (or a Rogue wielding a Dagger) has an attack bonus of +32. This means that you'll need to roll a 10 (55% chance) to hit level 30 Brutes and Artilleries, or a 12 (45% chance) to hit Skirmishers, Lurkers, and Controllers. Paragon Paths like Kensai or Epic Destinies like Demigod (extra +2 ability bonus) gives you an extra 5% chance not to mention other combat bonuses (i.e. combat advantage).

Monster AC = Level + 12~16

 

[R_kajdi]

The AC of monsters doesn't quite increase by 1 per level. That's why the monster advancement formula isn't very accurate outside a 5 level range or so. I actually believe that a character who puts all his stat increases in his main stat (rather likely) and obtains a +6 weapon by 30th level will have a slightly better chance to hit an equal level enemy as he did on 1st level- about 60-65%.

By the book for making a random monster of a random level, you are wrong here. The only factors into a creature's AC are a) role and b) level. AC is determined by the formula 10 + role (these are combined on the chart) + level. The monsters from the monster manual work off this formula as best I can tell. Same role with +/-n levels means +/-n AC.

 

[R_kajdi]

Here's the math:

At level 30, you should have the following bonuses to AC:

15 (1/2 your level)
6 (Magic Item Bonus)
5* or 14 (Elder Hide Armor or Godplate armor)
*Add Dex or Int Modifier (assuming your character uses either Dex or Int for their powers, that's a bonus of anywhere from +7 (if 16 was your 1st-level stat) or +9 (on a 20)).
1 (Feat bonus for armor if you take the feat)

So a 30th-level character's AC is anywhere from 45~46 AC (+6 Godplate Armor) or 43~46 AC (+6 Elder Hide Armor).

**Optional Shield Bonus anywhere from +1 to +3
*** Paragon Paths and Powers might increase this.

That matches the formula for monsters to have Attack vs AC = Level + 3~7

I'm not worried about player AC vs. attack. I'm worried about player attack vs. monster AC. It seems like so much effort was done to get rid of the stupid ramping that occurred in 3rd edition (where when you got to high levels, you didn't bother to do anything outside your specialty), only to add it back in. It just seems dumb to force the PCs into a footrace against monster AC that they really can't keep even with.