4th ED Questions

[Ferghis]

I foresee a long thread that the OP might respond to once, if at all.

Not that I mean that as a criticism. This is a fantastic aspect of fora: one person can start a conversation by barely participating.

 

[S'mon]

I have look at some of the books for 4th is all. I was turned off by the fact the MMs where just combat stats and where not what I thought the 4th MM should be. I like my description of monster to have a physical description of the monster and its race and stuff that previous edition MM had.

I don't need extensive 2e-style ecology notes (though 1-2 lines is nice), but I do find the lack of physical descriptions in 4e monster books really weird. A lot of the time it's a 'legacy' monster and I can refer back to older stuff, but for new monsters it's a big problem, since I have to describe the critter at-table, and neither the monster books nor WoTC-published adventures describe the monsters. They also do not describe monsters powers beyond their title, so I'm often left struggling to understand what is happening 'in world' and present it in an exciting/dramatic manner to the players.
I also get annoyed when players, who *do* have fluff descriptions for their PC powers, just say 'X vs Will, Y damage, slowed' and don't bother stating what is happening in-world. This is problem with 4e design structure that simply does not occur in older editions, IME. 4e seems to expect players to handle all aspects of player powers, including presentation, whereas pre-4e expects spells, at least, to fall within GM adjudication & presentation.

 

[S'mon]

Because when it comes to the physical attributes a picture is worth a thousand words.

Not for me. The game is played with words, around the table - I need to be able to describe a monster in words to the players. 4e monster books & adventures don't describe the monsters - and new monsters that appear in adventures rarely get pictures.

What actually tends to happen IME is that I point to the miniature and say "it looks like that". Which is ok, but I'd much prefer to have a description handy.

 

[Steely_Dan]

1) Because the 4e planes are much more of an adventurers' cosmology.


2) But honestly, who cares about e.g. Bytopia. Or for that matter the difference between Tartaerus, Hades, and Gehenna.

1) Not true, don't listen to this, Planescape has just as many (more, IME) opportunities for adventure.


2) Me, and many others; in fact, in the campaign I've been running for 7 years the party had to go to Bytopia and draft some gnome help (Garl Glittergold was involved, indirectly). And the differences between Tarterus, Hades and Gehenna is significant.


Note: not every plane or place in the Multiverse has to be a place where players can go and kill stuff, there is more to a cosmology than that.

 

[underfoot007ct]

Here is explanation of CN alignment. i think a person with a CN alignment does what ever they want when they want to. The Alignment System - Chaotic Neutral

Why do we still have alignment? Also why do you think D&D probably never needed 9 alignments?

I love evil PC!

I have look at some of the books for 4th is all. I was turned off by the fact the MMs where just combat stats and where not what I thought the 4th MM should be. I like my description of monster to have a physical description of the monster and its race and stuff that previous edition MM had. I remember the Habitat/Society and Ecology section of the monsters found the MMs for 2nd. I felt stuff like that was missing from the 4th MMs. I feel stuff like can actually help the DMs when run the monsters

I also remember the first 2nd MM I bought was a package of three hole punched black and white monster sheets you put into a three ring binder that had color picture of the Displacer Beast, Beholder, and the UMber Hulk on the front of the three ring binder (Monstrous Compendium, Vol. 1 (Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, 2nd Edition))

So why the complex 4e post now ? Sounds like you have had the 4e books for awhile, so why all the 4e critics now ? Are you perhaps looking to play some 4e soon ?

 

[Trit One-Ear]

I agree whole-heartedly with [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION], I've had to push several players (and myself) away from just saying "you take damage with this attack." I recently ran a Duergar Bloodmage who made players bleed from their eyes. That earned their ire much quicker than if I had just said "You're blinded."

I also miss monster descriptions, and fumbling to describe a monster's powers in the moment. With 3-6 monster types on the board, 2-3 interesting powers per monster, and the dreaded combat-grind to be mindful of, it's just easier to say "he attacks you." Which is sad in my mind.

Trit

 

[Meadyaon]

So why the complex 4e post now ? Sounds like you have had the 4e books for awhile, so why all the 4e critics now ? Are you perhaps looking to play some 4e soon ?

I just read the 4th MMs at a book store. I was curious is why I was asking the questions.

 

[Neonchameleon]

1) Not true, don't listen to this, Planescape has just as many (more, IME) opportunities for adventure.

Planescape is a great setting (pre-Faction War). It's a setting about philosophers with clubs (to quote Zeb Cook). But most of, and the most important part of Planescape is Sigil. It's where the philosophers are and most of the interesting things are.

And The Great Wheel fits Planescape. When your setting is about philosophers with clubs, a cosmology that looks like a philosophical construct fits. When your setting is about driving back the darkness, the Great Wheel Rolling Onwards is a clash. If your setting is about driving back the darkness, then making your cosmology itself a fragile point of light with the Primordials and the Far Realm as well as the devils within fits the world and the campaign.

2) Me, and many others; in fact, in the campaign I've been running for 7 years the party had to go to Bytopia and draft some gnome help (Garl Glittergold was involved, indirectly). And the differences between Tarterus, Hades and Gehenna is significant.

How are those differences significant? Explain please the point of a LNE plain, a NE plain, and a CNE plain as well as a LE one and a CE one.

As for Bytopia, from what you've said its significance is that it's the gnome afterlife. Fair enough. 4e can fit a demiplane with a gnome afterlife. And yes you can go there. That would fit the role of Bytopia. How does Bytopia's place on the Great Wheel change things?

Note: not every plane or place in the Multiverse has to be a place where players can go and kill stuff, there is more to a cosmology than that.

You can't go to the Far Realm either. And I'm not aware people go to the elemental and quasi-elemental planes to kill things.

 

[Steely_Dan]

1) How are those differences significant? Explain please the point of a LNE plain, a NE plain, and a CNE plain as well as a LE one and a CE one.


2) As for Bytopia, from what you've said its significance is that it's the gnome afterlife.


3) You can't go to the Far Realm either. And I'm not aware people go to the elemental and quasi-elemental planes to kill things.

1) Read Planes of Law, Planes of Chaos, and Planes of Opposition, heck, just read pre-4th Ed D&D lore.


2) That it is not at all what I said, read Planes of Law.


3) Of course you can.

 

[GreyICE]

Okay, I'll be blunt: Why are people in the 4E forum complaining about how much 4E sucks?

If you want a lot of fluff and backstory, both Monster Vault products are far better than the first Monster Manual. Hell, want a list of books with really good lore?

Open Grave - EXCELLENT lore about the undead. Everything you could ever possibly want to know about using undead in your campaign. An A++ product, and a direct challenge to the idea that 4E has no monster fluff. Open Grave is probably the best D&D manual on undead ever produced.

Draconomicon - Wanna use dragons? Lore? LORE! LORE LORE LORE LORE!

Demonomicon - Wanna use Demons? See above.

Dark Sun Creature Catalogue - playing Dark Sun? Want to use Dark Sun monsters in your homebrewed setting? This should give you a thousand ideas.

The Plane Above/The Plane Below - both more of a grab bag setting than a straight monster manual, but both include a pile of monsters, with lots of setting information.

Monster Vault/MV Nentir Vale - a page or two of fluff and information for each monster. Completely great resource.

If your purpose is to find a good Fourth Edition monster source with lots of setting information, pick and choose. Each one of those products is good to astonishingly brilliant.

If your purpose is to come in here and complain about a 4 year old product that has been obsoleted by so many releases it's not even funny, welp.