4th Edition Bard

[Donovan Morningfire]

Skimmed through, and this looks pretty nifty.

D/ling the pdf now so I can give it a more through read-thru later on.

 

[jeff0]

I've only read a little bit so far, but I love what I've seen. I have one balance suggestion:

Granting extra saving throws doesn't seem to be treated as a minor effect by the game in general (for instance, see the Cleric 2 utility Divine Aid). Either the damaging or saving throw effect of Warning Yell could use to be toned down. I would either make the damage only Cha (no 1d8) or change the granted saving throw into a bonus to the next save.

 

[Zsig]

I'm trying to download it but I keep getting corrupted files...

My original concept was to mirror the 3.5 version of maintaining a song as say a minor action, etc etc. The problem arose that if you could grant a decent bonus to attack/damage or whatever every encounter all the time as long as you sustain it, why would you not do this every single fight?

Maybe that's the problem then, "sustain minor" would obviously be too broken, as you could effectively sing/play as you do other stuff, but if it had a "sustain standard" you would have to basicly sacrifice your main action in a given turn to maintain the effect. I know that this would lead to some sort of "passive" playing like in 3E, and that's probably not where they tried to get in 4E...

 

[saric]

I've only read a little bit so far, but I love what I've seen. I have one balance suggestion:

Granting extra saving throws doesn't seem to be treated as a minor effect by the game in general (for instance, see the Cleric 2 utility Divine Aid). Either the damaging or saving throw effect of Warning Yell could use to be toned down. I would either make the damage only Cha (no 1d8) or change the granted saving throw into a bonus to the next save.

See the at will Cleric power called "sacred flame" p63. The target gets an option between gaining temp hit points or a saving throw. Thus, the bard power does a little bit more damage than the cleric, but is not as versatile. If you think its unbalanced go strangle a cleric first.

 

[saric]

I'm trying to download it but I keep getting corrupted files...

Thats odd, if you like I could e-mail it to you. Or I could stop being lazy and update the thread. Hmmm, decisions decisions.

 

[jeff0]

See the at will Cleric power called "sacred flame" p63. The target gets an option between gaining temp hit points or a saving throw. Thus, the bard power does a little bit more damage than the cleric, but is not as versatile. If you think its unbalanced go strangle a cleric first.

Woops. I'll shut up now.

 

[Chimera]

My original concept was to mirror the 3.5 version of maintaining a song as say a minor action, etc etc. The problem arose that if you could grant a decent bonus to attack/damage or whatever every encounter all the time as long as you sustain it, why would you not do this every single fight?

As a Bard player, I *DO* perform every single combat. That's my schtick. A 3e Bard has one use per level, which after the first level or so, basically means every encounter every day. Not only that, but I'm optimized with feat and spell to boost by +3/+3 at lower level (when we go to 8th level, I'll be +4/+4, and I don't use a musical instrument that might help this.)

That's really the only thing I don't like, that it's "till the end of my next turn", or only one round. That's a serious steep reduction from what it is now. Making it an Encounter power, lasting until the end of the encounter, isn't a huge thing, because currently, one round of standard action perform lasts 6 rounds (current + 5). Essentially a minor to sustain if I want it to last longer than 6 rounds. So far, I've only had this be an issue in two combats because I didn't sustain it (I just performed again!)

Of course, that makes the Inspirational Boost power a bit problematic, although in it's current form, if it stacks with the class feature, it's a +3 boost for one round, which you could do in every combat. That would be my "rules question". Obviously as written now, you can't do both, but if Inspire becomes 'full-encounter', which I think it should, then it becomes an issue. (Though not much of one for me given that I already boost for +3/+3 for the full combat, and this is a reduction in my ability to do that and requires standard actions over two different rounds.)

 

[Chimera]

The only other issue I would have at this point, not having made extensive study of the material but more of a perusal, would be "Implement". My Bard is an Orator. While I have acquired two masterwork musical instruments and invested skill points in their use, I have never used them in combat. My character view is the fireside storyteller, the loremaster, the inspiring leader, the speechifier who rallies the troops. NOT a Minstrel, Juggler or Fool. As such, I really have no use for an Implement.

 

[PeteVZ]

Fireside storytellers often had a talking stick though. You could call it flavor to have a singing/storytelling Bard use a Rod as an implement and create some magic Rods that enhance talking (like a microphone)

 

[saric]

As a Bard player, I *DO* perform every single combat. That's my schtick. A 3e Bard has one use per level, which after the first level or so, basically means every encounter every day. Not only that, but I'm optimized with feat and spell to boost by +3/+3 at lower level (when we go to 8th level, I'll be +4/+4, and I don't use a musical instrument that might help this.)

Clerics could turn undead more than once per encounter too in 3.5. But not anymore. Bardic music is supposed to not be as powerful as channel divinity powers. A bard can have 90 encounters and use bardic music each time as long as he had 5 mins to rest in between battles.

Considering most of the powers are songs or verses, you are performing every encounter with every power you use. Just not always doing bardic music over and over and over again.

That's really the only thing I don't like, that it's "till the end of my next turn", or only one round. That's a serious steep reduction from what it is now. Making it an Encounter power, lasting until the end of the encounter, isn't a huge thing, because currently, one round of standard action perform lasts 6 rounds (current + 5). Essentially a minor to sustain if I want it to last longer than 6 rounds. So far, I've only had this be an issue in two combats because I didn't sustain it (I just performed again!)

This isn't 3rd edition. 4th edition has a different design philosophy and I tried to keep that essence, while carrying over some of the flavor. By allowing unlimited sustains for the powers as written now, it is way too good for a class feature or even other encounter powers compared to the other classes. Thus either the bonuses would have to change or the number of targets.

The pdf's inspirational boost is a daily power that lasts the encounter and it is a power bonus so it does not stack with inspire competence.

The only other issue I would have at this point, not having made extensive study of the material but more of a perusal, would be "Implement". My Bard is an Orator. While I have acquired two masterwork musical instruments and invested skill points in their use, I have never used them in combat. My character view is the fireside storyteller, the loremaster, the inspiring leader, the speechifier who rallies the troops. NOT a Minstrel, Juggler or Fool. As such, I really have no use for an Implement.

Its a mistake in the wording that I put in the description. Bardic instruments should work just like a cleric's holy symbol, which means you don't have to be actually wielding it to gain its benefit. You can just wear your harp on your back while giving your inspiring speech or sing your song without an instrument and you'd still get the bonus. The reason the implement exists is to give you a bonus to keep up with the power curve of the game and other classes. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to "enchant my voice."

As another suggestion, you could probably have a small scroll, book, pamphlet or yelling cone which could contain or amplify your speeches and you could consider that to be your bardic instrument. Otherwise, it would be called a "musical" instrument.

I hope this clarifies things a little bit.