4th Edition/Pathfinder Campaign

[tomlib]

I've had a mixed experience with 4th Edition as compared to 3.x Edition Dungeons and Dragons. As a player I enjoyed 3.x far more than 4th but in preparing my new campaign

The Girl in Glass | Obsidian Portal

and watching the GM in my current campaign I've found the experience as GM to be vastly improved in 4th Edition.

I do not want to explain why I think this way or have this thread become an Edition War. It is simply my experience with the two systems.

This being the case I was considering running the new campaign as a mixed 4th Edition/Pathfinder venture with the players using Pathfinder rules and myself using 4th Edition rules for Encounters.

I was hoping for Community Input on if anyone thinks this is possible and what steps might be taken.


The problems I see immediately are:

1. Healing Surges (I would incorporate them into Cleric/Paladin/Ranger feats)
2. Defenses (I would use 4th Edition Defenses across the board for all creatures)
3. Saving Throws (Again, I prefer the simple style of 4th Edition)
4. Skill Challenges (They simply don't work for me although I love the concept of PCs doing what they do best rather than a skilled Role-Player dominating the action despite having a PC with no useful skills in the matter at hand)

Do you think this is possible?

If so am I missing things that I will need to do.
If not, please explain why.

Thanks for all the input and Happy Gaming!

Tom

 

[Blackbrrd]

The biggest improvement in 4e is as you say, for the DM. What you might be overlooking because of your experience with 3.x is that 4e is a big improvement for the more casual gamer, or the player that hasn't played 3.x for several years. Playing a druid effectively in 3.x is a nasty challenge for a new/casual player. To sum it up: I think 4e makes for less time spent on the rules and more time spent on role playing and fighting.

1. Healing surges are connected to healing in 4e, if you don't do a complete rewrite of the 3.x rules, they don't make much sense. Another thing is that healing is a minor action in 4e and a standard action in 3.x

2. You will be changing it from save to attack vs defense? This sounds like a lot of work.

3. I assume you are going to use saving throws for status effects like 4e, otherwise point 2. above doesn't make sense. This should probably be a lot simpler than before.

4. Skill challenges is not something I see as a problem, I have done a couple of them in 4e, but not quite by the book. A hybrid wing-it-style should work fine for an experienced DM.

I tried running a campaign where the players asked for items 4e-style, but it really didn't suit me. It felt like an MMO. I don't even like the magic shops of 3.x, they make no sense. I like loot being more like in The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings.

I think you would be better of DM-ing 4e and using the wast amounts of time you don't have to spend on the rules and house rules, thinking of fun NPCs, encounters and story.

Have you asked your players what they want? We had one player that really wasn't comfortable with 4e to start with, but after a few combats he was sold. Combat in 4e is much more dynamic, even though it is more constrained. It feels much more fair than 3.x does.

 

[darjr]

Go with your original like this.

1. Don't do healing surges. Unless the monster has them then let the monster use them.

2. When a PC attacks a monster use AC, unless it is an effect that needs a save, then use the proper defense minus 10 as the save bonus against the DC. Some fudging will be necessary. Do use reflex as the touch AC and so on.

3. When a monster attacks a characters defense other than their AC, don't. Instead let the PC roll their saving throw defense against a DC of 10 plus the monsters attack bonus. Again some fudging will be necessary. Again sometimes things like the touch AC should be used as a 4e reflex defense.

4. Make up skill challenges, but use them as only a scaffolding. Let smart players auto success with good rp and let others get in the action with their characters stats. Also don't make it a minigame, go about it like any other encounter you would rp. Consider imposing a kind of initiative order of some sort.

I think it is doable. I think it's possible with monsters right out of the MM and MM2. I think the 4e monsters will be over powered, but I think the pathfinder rules are amped up a bit anyways, however I bet you'll still do a lot of adjusting on the fly. What I'd like to know are the adjustments for power disparity that folks have discovered.

 

[nightwyrm]

1. 4e style healing depends on healing surges. They're essentially a max cap on the number of times you can be healed in a day.

2. 3.x/PF saves = 4e style defenses are fine. It's mostly a matter of adding or subtracting 10 from save bonuses or DCs and having the caster/attacker roll the d20 instead of the target.

3. 4e saves are a duration mechanic and that's what you need to look at to replace in PF.

4. Skill challenges aren't a big deal, use them, not use them, modify it to your taste.

 

[alleynbard]

This is a fascinating idea.

I had heard of DMs using a separate system for what goes behind the screen but I have never tried it myself.

Could you keep us up to date on how that works out? I would love to see regular reports on the advantages, disadvantages, and pitfalls to avoid.

XP for you.

I think I would go with the idea of dropping healing surges, unless the creature has them. Then that can be described as healing/regenerative power.

Hit points totals are huge in 4e, so you will likely need to lower those for a Pathfinder game. Maybe not as low as what you see in PFRPG, but enough so that combats don't drag. But, if you want longer combats, feel free to leave them as they are written. That might make combats difficult, but you can adjust for that I think.

The other issue are abilities that ends with a save. Not sure if you want to keep those or not. Some of them, like the ongoing energy damage, make a great deal of sense. Those kinds of situations already exist. But diseases and poisons are something else entirely. You would have to decide if you are using the Pathfinder system or the 4e system. Personally, I would go with Pathfinder, but the choice is yours.

 

[tomlib]

Thanks!

I appreciate the replies. I've looked at some of the suggestion and I'm still ruminating on a decision.

1. I really like the concept behind Healing Surges because if frees up the Cleric/Druid/Paladin character. I'm leaning towards keeping them but there are potentially drastic effects to those caster classes.
2. I agree with that AC, Fort, Reflex, Will relatively easily transfer over to Defenses and shouldn't be too much of an issue.
3. I also agree with most spell effects involving Duration coming under the 4th Edition Saving Throw system fairly easily with a few judgment calls, disease mainly.
4. Skill Challenges might actually be better with the expanded Pathfinder Skills set provided I play them loosely.
5. I hadn't considered the Hit Point issue but that should be fairly easily dealt with by dropping totals for monsters.
6. I forgot about Iterative attacks which as a 3.x GM I despised. I'm considering using a system where two attacks = 2[W] etc.
7. I also hadn't considered 20th level max versus 30th level max but as long as I judge the encounter equal level really shouldn't matter.

I'm still aways from starting the campaign and I haven't created the characters yet so I have time to make a final decision. When I do I will keep anyone interested informed.

Thanks again and Happy Gaming

Tom

 

[Stalker0]

You can easily add healing surges in a 3e type game. You may wish to reduce the number people get if you want it to be a supplementary system. I could see it as a way for player's to recover somewhat between fights without a healer.

 

[Gansk]

Read the Book of Experimental Might - it will solve your healing surge issue.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Yep, the Book of Experimental Might might (hur, hur) be worth the price for you. Also - and particularly - Trailblazer. This one does at least half of all that for you, plus a good deal more.

As well as that book, the d20srd site - especially the Variant Rules section - is pretty much gold. If you prefer hard copy format, grab a copy of Unearthed Arcana (the 3e version) - that's where all those variant rules come from. A couple of items to check out for starters: Complex Skill Checks (basically, Skill Challenges a la 4e, but for 3e, and before 4e was even conceived); Reserve Points (not exactly Healing Surges, but achieves a somewhat similar effect, I suppose); and Action Points (yep, those things, more or less).

Ah yes, there's also 4e Death & Dying rules for 3e over at WotC's site. Dunno, could be of some use to you.

 

[Phaezen]

Oddly enough, I m in a similar situation with an Iron Heroes game I am preparing.

I have blogged a little about how I will be adjusting npcs and monsters to a more 4e style to make my game prep easier

These are my initial thoughts, which will be modified as they are playtested in the campaign.

The biggest issue I have with running D20 games is preparing npc and monster stat-blocks for sessions. Iron Heroes immediately helps simplify issues, by not relying heavily on spell casters on either side of the screen. I am looking at totally redesigning the monster stat-blocks.

The first thing I am stealing is monsters and npcs have the stats, ac, hit-points, skills and abilities I as the dm feel they need to have. I am not going to spend time tweaking equipment, feats and class abilities and levels to get them where they need to be.

At the moment I will be looking at my player's attack bonuses and setting npc/monster ac according to the following guidelines: Hard will require a 12 to hit for the highest attack bonus, medium will require a 10 to hit for the average attack bonus and easy will require a ten to hit for the character with the lowest.

Saves will be set similarly, looking at the DCs of characters abilities.

As for hit-points, I will be using minions to bulk out fights, standard npc's should be able to last 2 rounds of focused attacks by the party and leaders should be able to last 5.

When it comes to npc attacks, I will be using an at-will/encounter/recharge system similar to that of 4e. Attack bonuses and damage will be appropriate the strengths of the party. Spell casters will be given 5 to 8 spell like powers, depending on their level and the role I want them to fulfill in the encounter.

What I am trying here is to keep the game appearing the same on the players side of the screen while using my experiences with 4e to improve the gming side.

I haven't looked to closely at the Pathfinder system, sop the following thoughts are based off my 3.x experience.

I am keeping saves and defences as is for the moment. Healing surges should be easy enough to incorporate into 3e.

Cure light allows the trigger of a healing surge and each step up in the cure spell ladder adds a d6 or a d8 to the roll. Heal allows a full healup for the cost of 1 healing surge.

Paladins can use lay on hands charisma modifiers times a day to use one of thier own healing surges to heal an ally.

I hope this help a little