4th to 5th Edition Converters - What has been your experience?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not even that. It's actively rewarding system mastery for the people who understand the system - while making proper testing harder. Obscure basic mechanics are a gift to hard core system masters who want to dominate the game.

I think I'm more referring to the opposite situation where the rules are vague and obscure and filled with mysterious unknowable DM interpretation. In that scenario there's no mastery. Tony seemed to be saying that there was some sort of path between extremes between system mastery of a complex (and perhaps obtuse system) and the 'playing the DM' that will happen in the vague and DM interpretation driven system.

My response to that is "no, a precise and clear system simply clears the board of these considerations." That is to say it allows the DM to work by managing plot and action, deploying the precisely defined and clear rules and then creating scenarios with them that achieve the narrative ends desired (I don't mean railroading by that either, I mean whatever those ends ARE, hopefully something gratifying to the table).

Now, that means IMHO you have potentially a few choices. You could have a very simple and clear system. This could be achieved for instance by a small subset of 4e, maybe something like Essentials with a few rough edges filed off it. There are systems a lot like this around that handle things pretty concisely without a lot of ambiguousness in mechanics. 4e represents an extension of that into an elaborate system where system mastery is definitely a factor, though not overwhelmingly so. Then you have systems like 3.x that are ALL system mastery, things are pretty well laid-out but the game is just incredibly obtuse and there's no attempt to make it easy to figure out what to do as a player to come to grips with it. Beyond that you have systems like older classic D&D that are not super complex, but simply rely heavily on DM fiat and interpretation such that there simply aren't rules for things that happen all the time. At best a DM is highly consistent and sticks to what the game covers fairly well, but that's where you get your heavy DM influencing (or else DMs that come across as being 'hard-assed', its hard to actually DM these games really well). There are some other types, like DW that are pretty well nailed-down in terms of rules, but the process of play is so open-ended that its really a mutual narrative more than game play in focus.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, especially in the context of just how freaking complex casters are in 5e. Until you blow your highest level spell slots, most caster 8s have somewhere on the order of about 12-15 at-will options.

Yeah, my assessment of 5e casting is that it is MUCH more forgiving than classic D&D Vancian (which is pretty much carried from version to version without big changes, though 3.x removed a lot of strictures on when and where and how you could actually USE the spells). Vancian casters MAY have more spell slots at higher levels, but since they have to define exactly how many of each spell they can cast on a given day they are MUCH more restricted in terms of accessing the more niche spells. Add on 5e's ritual system where you get many utility spells basically 'for free' (no 5e wizard would bother to memorize things like detect magic, its a waste of a spell slot) and you have a LOT more actual freedom.

My level 7 5e wizard has 4,3,3,2 slots, the same as a level 8 2e wizard, so he's not even behind on basic spell slots. Then he's got cantrips (4 of them IIRC). Then he's got rituals (I think I've got at least 10 rituals in my spell books altogether). On top of that he's got 2 very solid class features (he can alter up to a cubic foot of certain basic materials for a short period of time) and he has Philosopher's Stone that is a fairly decent buff 'spell' that lasts all day. Beyond that he can uplevel any of his 1-3rd level spells up to as high as a level 4 slot, meaning in essence he has 10 different 4th level spells he can cast (though probably half of them really aren't worth pushing there are several which really benefit a lot from this and would otherwise be much less potent spells).

Its true, the scope of the spells is somewhat more limited. My level 4 wizard spells maybe aren't quite as crazy powerful as the 2e ones, but actually I'm not even sure this is true. I've got Stone Shape, which is kinda limited, but I've still found many pretty open-ended uses for it. Polymorph is stupid powerful, every bit as strong as its AD&D equivalent (more so in fact, as there's no 'system shock' or anything like that in 5e).

5e clerics are pretty nasty too. I mean just Bless and Guidance KICK ASS. Compared to an AD&D cleric, who basically had almost no choice except to memorize N iterations of Cure * Wounds and maybe risk burning one slot on Bless, a decent but not overwhelming spell, the 5e cleric is vastly stronger.

I don't know about really high level casters. My experience with AD&D was that really the highest level spells SOUND awesome, but most of them are so situational that they're really plot devices. You want certain ones, for sure, but there's really only a few that you would tote around a dungeon and cast on things. Also buffs just sucked in AD&D, whereas it looks like 5e, with the flexible slots, gives you the chance to have both the 'stock' spells AND some of the weird ones, and to at least carry a couple potent buffs that you can always burn in a variety of situations.

 

[MwaO]

Yeah, my assessment of 5e casting is that it is MUCH more forgiving than classic D&D Vancian (which is pretty much carried from version to version without big changes, though 3.x removed a lot of strictures on when and where and how you could actually USE the spells). Vancian casters MAY have more spell slots at higher levels, but since they have to define exactly how many of each spell they can cast on a given day they are MUCH more restricted in terms of accessing the more niche spells. Add on 5e's ritual system where you get many utility spells basically 'for free' (no 5e wizard would bother to memorize things like detect magic, its a waste of a spell slot) and you have a LOT more actual freedom.

(lots of other thoughts I completely agree with deleted for space)

One more thing - AD&D casters, by definition, as the day progressed, would cast their spells. So as the player grows tired, the PC naturally prunes their options, making it easier. But in 5e, assuming that 8th level caster holds onto a 4th level slot for emergencies, the options never actually go down in number.

I think the natural outcome of this is you see a lot of 4e-style Psionic PC spamming. People repeatedly casting best options because they're better than anything else - in 4e, Helpless was limited to a handful of options, usually once a day at best, single target often, and/or requiring a round or two to fully trigger. 5e? Mass Helplessness is a level 5 spell that can completely redefine the idea of a 4v4 humanoid PC party vs humanoid NPC party encounter(Hold Person unleveled to 5th)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One more thing - AD&D casters, by definition, as the day progressed, would cast their spells. So as the player grows tired, the PC naturally prunes their options, making it easier. But in 5e, assuming that 8th level caster holds onto a 4th level slot for emergencies, the options never actually go down in number.

I think the natural outcome of this is you see a lot of 4e-style Psionic PC spamming. People repeatedly casting best options because they're better than anything else - in 4e, Helpless was limited to a handful of options, usually once a day at best, single target often, and/or requiring a round or two to fully trigger. 5e? Mass Helplessness is a level 5 spell that can completely redefine the idea of a 4v4 humanoid PC party vs humanoid NPC party encounter(Hold Person unleveled to 5th)

Heh, yeah, though it does cut a bit the other way. I'm not afraid to memorize Stone Shape for instance because I know I can always hurl a Chromatic Orb leveled to 4th if I really need a quick offensive punch, but otherwise I can burn it on this fun spell with a lot of creative uses.

Oh, I also forgot the OTHER benny that 5e wizards get, spell recovery! lol. At level 7 I can get back what, 3 levels worth of slots? Its not bad! At level 8 I'll get 4, so at even levels you can recover even your highest level spell. I guess if your DM is kind he could let a 2e wizard use his spell book as an emergency scroll... Heck, you can't even MAKE a scroll or a potion until level 7 in 2e at all. If I want to burn treasure my nice 5e wizard can build up a fairly good reserve of scrolls (though I do find he's got a lot of uses for his funds, not that the 2e wizard didn't).

 

[Obryn]

I think the natural outcome of this is you see a lot of 4e-style Psionic PC spamming. People repeatedly casting best options because they're better than anything else - in 4e, Helpless was limited to a handful of options, usually once a day at best, single target often, and/or requiring a round or two to fully trigger. 5e? Mass Helplessness is a level 5 spell that can completely redefine the idea of a 4v4 humanoid PC party vs humanoid NPC party encounter(Hold Person unleveled to 5th)

My face is twitching. I am still traumatized by the 19th-level Dishearten(Aug2)-spamming Psion in my Dark Sun game.

 

[MwaO]

My face is twitching. I am still traumatized by the 19th-level Dishearten(Aug2)-spamming Psion in my Dark Sun game.

What's actually hysterically funny about Dishearten Aug 2 spamming is that Psions actually have some awesome options with varied choices. I was playing an Avenger|Psion who picked up eventually Thunder Tether, Kinetic Buffer, and Dimensional Scramble with Dreamwalker as her paragon path. She was a blast to play, lots of interesting tactical choices to do with psionic power points.

And a lot of people miss just how powerful Brilliant Thought is because they're thinking about their spamming choices. Get to the point where you can spam Brilliant Thought and Psions are almost Sorcerers in striker capabilities...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Obscure basic mechanics are a gift to hard core system masters who want to dominate the game.

I disagree. System masters like to know the system will work as presented, with a DM-judgment-dependent system like 5e, that foundation is always shifting under them.

 

[MwaO]

I disagree. System masters like to know the system will work as presented, with a DM-judgment-dependent system like 5e, that foundation is always shifting under them.

Depends on the system master. Some put a lot of points into 'Fast-Talk the DM' instead 'Make the Table Fun'...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Depends on the system master. Some put a lot of points into 'Fast-Talk the DM' instead 'Make the Table Fun'...

Heh. Seriously, though, we went into that distinction, above, and gaming the DM like that is a very real & effective form of power gaming, but it's not what I was getting at in referencing 'system masters.'

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What's actually hysterically funny about Dishearten Aug 2 spamming is that Psions actually have some awesome options with varied choices. I was playing an Avenger|Psion who picked up eventually Thunder Tether, Kinetic Buffer, and Dimensional Scramble with Dreamwalker as her paragon path. She was a blast to play, lots of interesting tactical choices to do with psionic power points.

And a lot of people miss just how powerful Brilliant Thought is because they're thinking about their spamming choices. Get to the point where you can spam Brilliant Thought and Psions are almost Sorcerers in striker capabilities...

Yeah, I had a guy get into my online 4e game for a while that ran one of those monstrosities. It was a bit amusing, but the other players quickly noted that he was easily outgunning 4 other characters without anyone even buffing him. He got bored and went on to other things before they released a more reasonable version of that class. Even after Psionic Power though the psionic classes didn't REALLY work that well. They DID have some neat stuff, its true, but it would have been much cooler without the psionic points mechanism to be perfectly frank. I toyed with the idea of writing up a de-pointized version of those classes, but nobody really was that interested in psionics.

Its true though, the 5e full casters feel a LOT like the 4e psionic classes, except you also have utility powers that work on the same point pool! lol. And lots more points...